200r4 or......?

[Jimbuick]

Trying to figure out where I want to take the car from here and been doing some google-fu about Trans most recently. Not planning to do anything with mine too soon (because it doesn't currently have any problems), but trying to create a build sheet for mods I'd like to make in the future as things fail or as money allows. Mine is an 87 GN, just FYI.

Seeing a lot of good things about the TH400 with regards to durability for street/strip application. So what say y'all, consider a built TH400 or just beef up the 200 I already have?

Plans for the car are a mean drag car, and mostly a fast street car (for good weather days). I like the idea of a gated shifter for whatever that's worth. Just wondering who's done the swap, and what they've noticed they've gained from it over the 2004r.

Thanks in advance!

 

[charlief1]

The loss of overdrive is one thing you'll loose. It weighs more but you might consider the 4L80E since it's basically a 400 with overdrive that's computer controlled. You get a stand a lone controller for it and do some clearance work in the tunnel, and a shorter drive shaft, and you should be good to go.

 

[bison]

The Hyrdamatic 400 is an excellent heavy duty transmission. It readily accepts modification and a wide range vb's available with different types of trans brake options. It's possible to setup a variable stall also. The gearing in a factory 400 is closer to what a full weight low 10 sec or faster turbo regal needs. Most are better off with a 200-4R but if you want to open up that window of potential and aren't concerned with overdrive the 400 is a big win.


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[Jimbuick]

The loss of overdrive is one thing you'll loose. It weighs more but you might consider the 4L80E since it's basically a 400 with overdrive that's computer controlled. You get a stand a lone controller for it and do some clearance work in the tunnel, and a shorter drive shaft, and you should be good to go.

That doesn't sound like a terrible idea, any issues with installation besides tunnel work?

Don't believe I've ever owned a vehicle with that transmission, so if have to google-fu some info but it sounds like a good option especially to save a little gas with OD.

The Hyrdamatic 400 is an excellent heavy duty transmission. It readily accepts modification and a wide range vb's available with different types of trans brake options. It's possible to setup a variable stall also. The gearing in a factory 400 is closer to what a full weight low 10 sec or faster turbo regal needs. Most are better off with a 200-4R but if you want to open up that window of potential and aren't concerned with overdrive the 400 is a big win.


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That's what I understand, and they should be "OK" mostly stock with a 10 second car, correct?

That's my end goal, somewhere in 10's or so. I want it to be something I'll enjoy driving on the street still so its taking a little more planning and a little less doing at the moment.


Even thinking about installing one of those GNX type repro rear setups. Been looking at the DSE suspension parts too.

Thinking that's where I'll start. Suspension, then brakes (haven't decided on HB or Vacuum yet, but probably gonna upgrade to disc all around either way), Trans, then engine.

Not sure what I'm gonna do to the interior yet either.....

 

[charlief1]

That doesn't sound like a terrible idea, any issues with installation besides tunnel work?

Don't believe I've ever owned a vehicle with that transmission, so if have to google-fu some info but it sounds like a good option especially to save a little gas with OD...

You'll need an adapter to mount it to the engine, or change to a different bellhousing. The controller is the key to get it tuned in for shift points.

 

[bison]

I wouldn't run a mostly stock th400 with 10 sec or better power. The hydraulics would need to be updated, intermediate shaft, direct and intermediate clutches, and some other things to improve durability and internal part stability under higher power levels. I would plan on spending $2500-3000 to put one in the car with the converter not including the core. The driveshaft, crossmember mounting and yoke will need attention also.


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[400sbcdon]

Everyone made decent points but also consider that a th400 will have a higher loss in power to the rear because it takes more power to turn over than a th350. Not sure how it compares to the th200

 

[Jimbuick]

Everyone made decent points but also consider that a th400 will have a higher loss in power to the rear because it takes more power to turn over than a th350. Not sure how it compares to the th200

I don't understand the power loss to be a large enough difference to really effect 1/4 mile times between the two though.

The TH400 is also a good deal stronger, isn't it?

 

[Jimbuick]

You'll need an adapter to mount it to the engine, or change to a different bellhousing. The controller is the key to get it tuned in for shift points.

Can I run a gated shifter for use at the strip with one of these? I assume yes, but don't like to assume.

I figured the bellhousing would have to change, any rough idea on cost assuming I can install myself compared to the 400?

I wouldn't run a mostly stock th400 with 10 sec or better power. The hydraulics would need to be updated, intermediate shaft, direct and intermediate clutches, and some other things to improve durability and internal part stability under higher power levels. I would plan on spending $2500-3000 to put one in the car with the converter not including the core. The driveshaft, crossmember mounting and yoke will need attention also.


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That sounds close to what I figured it would be, ~$3000. Do you have one in yours? How street able is it on the highway (and in traffic)?

 

[charlief1]

Can I run a gated shifter for use at the strip with one of these? I assume yes, but don't like to assume.

I figured the bellhousing would have to change, any rough idea on cost assuming I can install myself compared to the 400?

There are several members that have done it and you need to do some searching to see what they've done. We also have tranny guys on the board that should be able to answer any questions you might have. Look in the LS section for some of your answers since a lot of the guys using them are LS based engines.

 

[chris kirk]

This was a topic I raised about two years ago when I was researching an 80E build for my car. I like the idea of overdrive. This way if I drive the car a long distance I won't worry as much burning up the transmission. I spoke to both, Jake's transmissions and Extreme Automatics (Lonnie), and both were very helpful, as I also did a little research myself on the internet about 80E builds and learned about some different issues people were having with them when being used with a 3.8. Also, if I remember correctly Eticket used one for a little while. Not sure if he still has it. I decided against it for several reasons. Issues like: fitment, reverse and reverse light problems, torque converter options, (though I think they're better now) speedometer, shift controller, setup....

It was much easier for me to by a 400 and a Gear Vendor then to go through all the aggravation of an 80E conversion. I even have a TA aluminum block which has the correct bolt pattern for the bell housing and I'm using a fast xfi (that I was told by fast) I could use as a controller. But, in the end it's still about the same cost. The 80E build without the converter will be in the $6k area (depending on the options and core charge) just as the 400 with the Gear Vendor. Only difference is the Gear Vender takes about ten minutes to bolt on, then a wire ran to your shifter to turn it on and off. I would talk to Lonnie from Extreme Automatics and/or Jake's transmission about it. Dusty Bradford, too, about the converter.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

This was a topic I raised about two years ago when I was researching an 80E build for my car. I like the idea of overdrive. This way if I drive the car a long distance I won't worry as much burning up the transmission. I spoke to both, Jake's transmissions and Extreme Automatics (Lonnie), and both were very helpful, as I also did a little research myself on the internet about 80E builds and learned about some different issues people were having with them when being used with a 3.8. Also, if I remember correctly Eticket used one for a little while. Not sure if he still has it. I decided against it for several reasons. Issues like: fitment, reverse and reverse light problems, torque converter options, (though I think they're better now) speedometer, shift controller, setup....

It was much easier for me to by a 400 and a Gear Vendor then to go through all the aggravation of an 80E conversion. I even have a TA aluminum block which has the correct bolt pattern for the bell housing and I'm using a fast xfi (that I was told by fast) I could use as a controller. But, in the end it's still about the same cost. The 80E build without the converter will be in the $6k area (depending on the options and core charge) just as the 400 with the Gear Vendor. Only difference is the Gear Vender takes about ten minutes to bolt on, then a wire ran to your shifter to turn it on and off. I would talk to Lonnie from Extreme Automatics and/or Jake's transmission about it. Dusty Bradford, too, about the converter.

Chris, you couldn't have said it better. You and I had the same questions and got the same answers. We both made the same decision. Only I never got the Gear Vender OD. I still think about it from time to time. But even after doing quite a lot of highway driving I found the tranny never gets above 180 degrees unless I load it up on a couple of boosted blasts back to back. When it gets hot, I turn on the tranny cooler fan. When it gets hotter I turn on my auxiliary external Tilton pump and this circulates fluid from the pan to another cooler with another fan mounted under the trunk, Then it returns it back nice and cool. Very nice.

 

[blklt1z28]

If all you're wanting is "10 sec" power/car then why not just have a reputable builder build you a 200? My car runs high 10's on a stock 77k mile 200 with nothing more than a converter, shift kit and a deep pan. Maybe I'm lucky.....probly a little. But why go through the hassle of swapping trans and losing OD (if a 400 is chosen with no GV) if thats as fast as you want to go.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

If all you're wanting is "10 sec" power/car then why not just have a reputable builder build you a 200? My car runs high 10's on a stock 77k mile 200 with nothing more than a converter, shift kit and a deep pan. Maybe I'm lucky.....probly a little. But why go through the hassle of swapping trans and losing OD (if a 400 is chosen with no GV) if thats as fast as you want to go.

You have a good point. A well built 200 is fine for 10's.

 

[Jimbuick]

If all you're wanting is "10 sec" power/car then why not just have a reputable builder build you a 200? My car runs high 10's on a stock 77k mile 200 with nothing more than a converter, shift kit and a deep pan. Maybe I'm lucky.....probly a little. But why go through the hassle of swapping trans and losing OD (if a 400 is chosen with no GV) if thats as fast as you want to go.

I've just seen and heard of too many completely built 200s breaking under that kind of power.

I've seen some that last, but its always a gamble with the 200 from what I've seen and heard. And I'd rather not spend all the money having a 200 built to "maybe" handle the power I need/want and then have to spend even more to get a 400 anyway after it breaks.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

I've just seen and heard of too many completely built 200s breaking under that kind of power.

I've seen some that last, but its always a gamble with the 200 from what I've seen and heard. And I'd rather not spend all the money having a 200 built to "maybe" handle the power I need/want and then have to spend even more to get a 400 anyway after it breaks.

Besides, you may not want to be in the 10's forever. That's what happened to me. 10's were OK. Then came the 9's. Soon will be 8's. I only have one stopping point these days. I'll stop only when I start needing a trailer to get it to and from the track.

 

[Jimbuick]

Besides, you may not want to be in the 10's forever. That's what happened to me. 10's were OK. Then came the 9's. Soon will be 8's. I only have one stopping point these days. I'll stop only when I start needing a trailer to get it to and from the track.

That's kind of what I was thinking, honestly, I'd rather over build the drivetrain/brakes/suspension to handle more power so that I don't need to rebuild it a few years later.

I like the logic with that, and I know 10 sec is really an arbitrary number and I'll probably never know how fast I want to be until I get there lol. As long as it is still a car I want to drive around on nice days, then that's fine by me.

 

[chris kirk]

Joe, that's an impressive set up. also, how do you keep the underneath so clean? Reminds me of a friend of mine that just finished his frame restoration in the spring.

 

[bison]

Everyone made decent points but also consider that a th400 will have a higher loss in power to the rear because it takes more power to turn over than a th350. Not sure how it compares to the th200

I have yet to see direct a-b-a proof of this but I'd bet it's a few hp. Nothing that couldn't be offset with a little blip in a tune. Not. Super stock car looking for every .0001 sec. Then it would be imperative to reduce all the mass possible. It is a heavier unit when in mostly stock configuration. The gain in low gear acceleration with the 2.48:1 1st will easily offset this if the car has the chassis and power. The 400 can be modified with lightweight components to save a lot of rotating weight if $$$ aren't a concern.


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[NY Twin Turbo]

Joe, that's an impressive set up. also, how do you keep the underneath so clean? Reminds me of a friend of mine that just finished his frame restoration in the spring.

Well, it's not a frame-off resto. Some day, maybe.

I spent some time a bunch of years ago on my back cleaning scrapping and painting. I didn't have a lift so it was hard work and things got kinda ugly. I always soap it up and rinse and dry it when I wash the car. The exhaust and some other stuff gets wiped with brake-clean. I don't drive in bad weather.

I'm not as careful with the cosmetic fashion in which I run my wires and hoses as I am in the engine compartment. Instead I pay more attention to function safety and accessibility. When the gas tank is removed, there's a lot of real estate under there if you know how to use it. Cool thing is, except for the rear end, none of that stuff can be seen from the car behind me.