Alcoholism...... Disease or Behavior Choice?

[GNBRETT]

Based on Greg in Atl reasoning diabetes, cancer, AIDS and other conditions must not be diseases because
as children an individual may have shown no signs of these conditions. Furthermore these conditions were 100 percent
avoidable due to activities like overeating, smoking, and permiscuous activities. Seems intelligent and logical
to me. Problem is they had the predisposition to the disease to start with and were exposed to a trigger that allowed it
to manifest. However others may be exposed to the same triggers
and never develop the disease. Same with alcoholism you never know till exposed. Also lots of alcoholics share
similar personality defects very evident in childhood that should be or should have been treated and later
in life they may find that alcohol treats these issues and develop an addiction to it. Problem ends up that
the solution becomes the problem and you end up in trouble big time in an alcoholic hell. That's when
you realize you need help are in over your head & symptomatic and need to seek treatment for your disease to have
any chance at survival.

Ok, I can understand some of that. Having a gene in ur body that triggers Cancer is not 100% avoidable tho. Not sure where ur getten that from.

Answer me this tho. What if I was diagnosed with Cancer and treated with various medications over time and then went back to the doctor who performed various blood tests that indicated that the Disease was no longer presnt in my blood. I would be cured right? It could return, but not because I decided to make a trip to the corner store to drink another glass of Cancer. It would be genetic if it returned, not a choice to spend money and consume alcohol.

If someone has HIV they will have it forever but it can be managed by medication to keep ones T-cells up therefore never developing AIDS as long as they continue to take their medication. Majic Johnson for example has been positive for probably 25 years now. Is he cured? No, but lives normally. Medication did that.

If someone has Diabetis they will need medication to control there insulin levels and can live like a normal human being as long as they take their medication.

What medication does an alcoholic take to control his disease?

You still never answered the question as to how one can be diagnosed as an alcoholic, therefore having a disease and simply decide that the consumption of alcohol is a poor decision and have now DECIDED to stop.

You keep dodging that question! If it's a DISEASE then how is one person able to drink like a fish (lose his job, marriage, house, kids, etc...) for say 20+ years (has the DISEASE of alcoholism) and then puts down the bottle and never looks back? If there is no medication then how did he do it?

Explain how (2) people can be diagnosed with the exact same DISEASE for 20+ years and (1) of those (2) stops completely and the others drinks himself into a hole.

Somehow I doubt you will respond back because you know dam well that (1) of those (2) people did it because they CHOOSE to. Not because they had better medication.

 

[t-topflyer]

I dont want to sound argumentative, but you missed my point;
The things you mention are caught sadly by accident in many cases yes, however, they are also passed w/o doing anything. AIDS is caught by "doing" in many cases, then passed through your DNA to unborn children w/o them doing anything... thus a disease.

Diabetes is also a disease, it also follows the same traits, you can do EVERYTHING right and end up w/ it. I agree eating poorly, or drinking a lot of soda will INCREASE the odds, but unlike alcohol is to alcoholism it wont CREATE the probability. I have a diabetic uncle that was born w/ it, has been taking shots in his belly for his entire life. He didn't do something at birth to create this in himself.
Here is the difference;
Alcoholism is a LIKELIHOOD or a PROPENSITY that is passed I can go that far w/ you and agree, however you can not be born w/ alcoholism, you can only be born w/ a gene that would make it more likely. Liklihood isnt a disease derivative. It is 100% avoidable by not drinking, where the others you mentioned have no 100% effective avoidance method.
You can be born w/ AIDS, Cancer, diabetes and the other things you mentioned. That is the medical difference. (in other words you cant catch alcoholism w/o alcohol, if so show me a documented case).

if you dont agree w/ this, Thats ok.

Reluctantly I have to continue to beat this dead horse..........Let's start with the definition of a disease:

A disease or medical condition is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs.[1][2][3] It may be caused by external factors, such as infectious disease, or it may be caused by internal dysfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases.
In human beings, "disease" is often used more broadly to refer to any condition that causes pain, dysfunction, distress, social problems, and/or death to the person afflicted, or similar problems for those in contact with the person. In this broader sense, it sometimes includes injuries, disabilities, disorders, syndromes, infections, isolated symptoms, deviant behaviors, and atypical variations of structure and function, while in other contexts and for other purposes these may be considered distinguishable categories.

Please try and understand one thing, just because the cause may or may not be 100% avoidable doesn't mean a disease is any less of a disease. I did understand your point, but I think you missed mine.......that the diseases that everyone considers so horrible can have avoidable causative factors. Does this make them less of a disease??? No!

Can I show you a case of alcoholism where no one has ever had a drink? No I cannot but I can show you a lot of dry drunks that if they discovered what alcohol did for them they would likely develop the disease. Can you show me a case of any given disease that didn't result from some cause known or unknown?

If you want to go as far as needing a 100% avoidable cause for the other diseases mentioned, I would have to say that an individual with AIDS, family history of diabetes, cancer etc., can 100% prevent future generations in their direct lineage from having these afflictions by not reproducing. Unfortunately, there is nothing they can do about what they already have other than to seek treatment, just like the individual afflicted with alcoholism.

Alcoholism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[t-topflyer]

Ok, I can understand some of that. Having a gene in ur body that triggers Cancer is not 100% avoidable tho. Not sure where ur getten that from. It can be if cigarettes are the trigger of the gene (just an example) There are many causes some of which may be avoidable some that aren't.

Answer me this tho. What if I was diagnosed with Cancer and treated with various medications over time and then went back to the doctor who performed various blood tests that indicated that the Disease was no longer presnt in my blood. I would be cured right? You could say that but most say cancer free. It could return, but not because I decided to make a trip to the corner store to drink another glass of Cancer. Missed the point......if you are re-exposed to the causative agent for example cigarettes, it would likely come back.....could be any other causative agent as well though... It would be genetic if it returned, not a choice to spend money and consume alcohol. Not completely genetic, but that's some of it....same with alcoholism.

If someone has HIV they will have it forever but it can be managed by medication to keep ones T-cells up therefore never developing AIDS as long as they continue to take their medication. Majic Johnson for example has been positive for probably 25 years now. Is he cured? No, but lives normally. Medication did that. Being abstinent from alcohol for a period of time will also allow one to live a "normal" life. Medications help.

If someone has Diabetis they will need medication to control there insulin levels and can live like a normal human being as long as they take their medication.

What medication does an alcoholic take to control his disease? Campral and Naltrexone are good examples. Lots of success stories with this regimen. There are so many levels of this disease and others that some may need medications and some may be able to get by with CBT. Some may need a combination. Same with any other disease. Treatment is individually based.

You still never answered the question as to how one can be diagnosed as an alcoholic, therefore having a disease and simply decide that the consumption of alcohol is a poor decision and have now DECIDED to stop. Then they weren't truly alcoholic if that's all it took. They just had an alcohol abuse problem.

You keep dodging that question! If it's a DISEASE then how is one person able to drink like a fish (lose his job, marriage, house, kids, etc...) for say 20+ years (has the DISEASE of alcoholism) and then puts down the bottle and never looks back? If there is no medication then how did he do it? A Spiritual Connection/Act of God.....can happen and help with cancer too

Explain how (2) people can be diagnosed with the exact same DISEASE for 20+ years and (1) of those (2) stops completely and the others drinks himself into a hole. The 1st had more effective and proper treatment than the latter or was never truly alcoholic and simply misdiagnosed.

Somehow I doubt you will respond back because you know dam well that (1) of those (2) people did it because they CHOOSE to. Not because they had better medication

 

[GNBRETT]

Reluctantly I have to continue to beat this dead horse..........Let's start with the definition of a disease:

A disease or medical condition is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions, associated with specific symptoms and signs.[1][2][3] It may be caused by external factors, such as infectious disease, or it may be caused by internal dysfunctions, such as autoimmune diseases.
In human beings, "disease" is often used more broadly to refer to any condition that causes pain, dysfunction, distress, social problems, and/or death to the person afflicted, or similar problems for those in contact with the person. In this broader sense, it sometimes includes injuries, disabilities, disorders, syndromes, infections, isolated symptoms, deviant behaviors, and atypical variations of structure and function, while in other contexts and for other purposes these may be considered distinguishable categories.

Please try and understand one thing, just because the cause may or may not be 100% avoidable doesn't mean a disease is any less of a disease. I did understand your point, but I think you missed mine.......that the diseases that everyone considers so horrible can have avoidable causative factors. Does this make them less of a disease??? No!

Can I show you a case of alcoholism where no one has ever had a drink? No I cannot but I can show you a lot of dry drunks that if they discovered what alcohol did for them they would likely develop the disease. Can you show me a case of any given disease that didn't result from some cause known or unknown?

If you want to go as far as needing a 100% avoidable cause for the other diseases mentioned, I would have to say that an individual with AIDS, family history of diabetes, cancer etc., can 100% prevent future generations in their direct lineage from having these afflictions by not reproducing. Unfortunately, there is nothing they can do about what they already have other than to seek treatment, just like the individual afflicted with alcoholism.

Alcoholism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wow, that's pretty much the whole point of the thread as to WHY it's labeled a Disease. I would have thought you could do more then copy and paste from Wikipedia....

So I guess ur not gonna answer the question then. How does one person quit and one person doesn't if its a disease?

If you can't answer that (1) question then you simply cannot prove that it's a disease. Once again.... YOU CANNOT QUIT A DISEASE. Many Quit drinking alcohol, in fact, thousands do every day around the world.

A predispostion to something that you are now addicted to means you now have an addition to that substance. Not a disease of that substance.

Name a disease that one can QUIT?

 

[t-topflyer]

Wow, that's pretty much the whole point of the thread as to WHY it's labeled a Disease. I would have thought you could do more then copy and paste from Wikipedia.... Think I already have, but just trying to give you something that would hopefully make some sense to you as nothing else seems to be sinking in.

So I guess ur not gonna answer the question then. How does one person quit and one person doesn't if its a disease? Simple, one had more effective/proper treatment for their disease than the other or wasn't too far along for treatment to work. Can be the same way with cancer, diabetes, AIDS.......

If you can't answer that (1) question then you simply cannot prove that it's a disease. Once again.... YOU CANNOT QUIT A DISEASE. Many Quit drinking alcohol, in fact, thousands do every day around the world. You can QUIT having signs and symptoms of a disease with proper treatment.....and you're right lots quit everyday around the world many of which simply have an alcohol abuse problem and it may be easier for them. Full blown addiction to alcohol/alcoholism is another story though and will require more extensive treatment/recovery for most likely the rest of that individuals life.

A predispostion to something that you are now addicted to means you now have an addition to that substance. Not a disease of that substance. This statement doesn't make sense to me but I guess that's just me being ignorant but alcoholism is the name for the disease that involves addiction to alcohol.

Name a disease that one can QUIT? Any and all......... with proper treatment you can be asymptomatic and therefore "QUIT" any disease or at least minimize and or ultimately quit having signs and symptoms of it altogether.

 

[GNBRETT]

Name a disease that one can QUIT? Any and all......... with proper treatment you can be asymptomatic and therefore "QUIT" any disease or at least minimize and or ultimately quit having signs and symptoms of it altogether.

I see ur gonna continue to dance around the question and therefore avoid answering it. Treatment is just a lame word for convincing an addict that he needs to stop or it will kill him (Kidney failure) or destroy his life.

Wow, when I came down with Lyme Disease (a real disease) I wish my doctor had informed me that I could simply "Quit" all that bacteria floating around in my body.

So now "Treatment" is medicine? Counceling is "Treatment". Alcoholics get counseling when they go to rehab. They are not hooked up to an IV or given a script to fill to get better.

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

If anyone cares, i am enjoying another cold beer right now... :biggrin:

I usually stick em in the freezer for 1/2 so they are nice and cold


Take care guys

BW

 

[t-topflyer]

I see ur gonna continue to dance around the question and therefore avoid answering it. Treatment is just a lame word for convincing an addict that he needs to stop or it will kill him (Kidney failure) or destroy his life. I've answered your question just in lamens terms so you can understand. If you need more specifics do what I told you before and do some research to educate yourself.

Wow, when I came down with Lyme Disease (a real disease) I wish my doctor had informed me that I could simply "Quit" all that bacteria floating around in my body. No, usually antibiotics in the tetracycline TCN class will allow you to quit this disease by helping to eliminate the bacteria from the body.....usually doxycycline, tetracycline or sometimes chloramphenicol (not a TCN)

So now "Treatment" is medicine? Counceling is "Treatment". Alcoholics get counseling when they go to rehab. They are not hooked up to an IV or given a script to fill to get better. Would answer so many questions for yourself if you would actually research this disease and quit trying to prompt reaction from me by replying with uneducated statements. During detoxification many times alcoholics are given vitamins and benzodiazepines (BDZ) via IV to help them QUIT the disease. Most commonly they use lorazepam and a rally pack of B-vitamins as part of the regimen. Alcohol eliminates itself from the body in hours to days but the effects/damage can last a lifetime and may require cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), counselling, medications or a combination of any of these as appropirate "treatment" ...........

 

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Got me a liver on lay-away for christmas..

Thanks plan 300 !

BW

 

[GNBRETT]

During detoxification

Exactly.... meaning they have voluntarily STOPPED drinking. That's what detoxification is. There is no Drug your were given to make you decide to not force a liquid down your throat. It doesn't get there by breathing it in....

And btw, your not even close on the Lyme. Much more complicated then that when involving co-infections. A fair attempt at it tho.

 

[GNBRETT]

Got me a liver on lay-away for christmas..

Thanks plan 300 !

BW

What's plan 300?

 

[t-topflyer]

Exactly.... meaning they have voluntarily STOPPED drinking. That's what detoxification is. There is no Drug your were given to decide not to force a liquid down your throat. It doesn't get there by breathing it in.... You're right you can't breathe the disease of alcoholism in but can you breathe diabetes in? Since you can't does that make it not a disease? You simply cannot think outside your little box can you? Breathing something in is not the only way to contract a disease. With alcoholism you're born with the predisposition for it and it requires a trigger which we specifically know is alcohol. Whether you're exposed to it or not determines the outcome and how severe it is. Some diseases may have more than 1 trigger. This one we just know more specifically what the trigger is. You could say addiction in general and it would increase the amount of triggers. In Regards to Lyme Disease did someone make you seek treatment for it or did you voluntary seek treatment because of your symptoms?

And btw, your not even close on the Lyme. Much more complicated then that when involving co-infections. A fair attempt at it tho If you need more detail on Lyme Disease start another thread and I'll be more than glad to contribute and we can go in to all the detail you want. I just gave you in general what is used. There are many co-infections and co-morbid conditions possible with all diseases. Many alcoholics have kidney, liver failure, HTN, CHF etc that require many different types of treatments.

 

[GNBRETT]

Oh, I think way outside my box often. You simply cannot provide me with any hard evidence that forcing alcohol down ones throat qualifies being an alcoholic a disease.

So the strong willed people have cured their Disease by no longer drinking and the weak minded still have the disease and therefore continue to drink. That sounds so rediculous but it's essentially what you are saying.

Resisting a strong urge is more about self control then some predisposition garbage.

So why is Heroin or Meth addicts not considered Diseases?

 

[t-topflyer]

Oh, I think way outside my box often. You simply cannot provide me with any hard evidence that forcing alcohol down ones throat qualifies being an alcoholic a disease. Maybe so, but you're not thinking that way in regards to this or maybe you just don't want to admit you're wrong. What makes it a disease is that some people can drink no problem and others become alcoholics. This predisposition to the disease is there from birth. Whether you are an alcoholic or not remains to be determined until exposed to the trigger. The disease part is that you don't know until it's too late. To compare and contrast to diabetes some can overeat all their lives become overweight and never develop diabetes while others do the same and develop the disease based on genetics and other factors.

So the strong willed people have cured their Disease by no longer drinking and the weak minded still have the disease and therefore continue to drink. That sounds so rediculous but it's essentially what you are saying. Again, if you're strong willed and are able to beat the disease you never had it to start with. You had an alcohol abuse problem/habit not alcoholism.

Resisting a strong urge is more about self control then some predisposition garbage.

So why is Heroin or Meth addicts not considered Diseases? It is a disease....the disease of addiction. Alcoholism is the classification that involves the addiction to alcohol. The disease is addiction whether it's to alcohol, Heroin, Meth, Crack whatever......some substances are more addictive than others to where it's possible that a larger amount of people will become addicted to said substance due to it's properties. The act of doing a substance is voluntary but the outcome may not be. Take AIDS for example contracted by permiscuous activity which is a voluntary act.....does that make it not a disease in that case?

 

[GNBRETT]

Presdisposition garbage again..... Translation: lacks will power... Just throw in the towel. It's over.

 

[8UWITH6]

 

[t-topflyer]

How can you honestly look at the definition of a disease and see that alcoholism doesn't fit that? Other
than your opinion where is the medical literature to support that its not a disease. This thread proves that
there is a major lack of education about the disease of alcoholidm and that the majority believe it not to be
a disease. Further proves that people hate to be wrong. Why do you keep ignoring the fact that
chosen behaviors lead to diseases such as diabetes, cancer, AIDS etc because its the same concept you
Can't seem to get can you? I can't understand it for you and I've done all I can do here for you. Happy
New Year.

 

[alwayscode390]

I go back to my example that "addicts" (alcohol or WHATEVER) have something different in their brain that isnt apparent until it is TRIGGERED by whatever they become addicted to.

Even if they KNOW with FACTS ( and lots of addicts are SMART ) that what they are doing IS KILLING THEM ... they cant stop. Its not that they dont want to stop, they CANT STOP ... its something in their brain.

I also believe that people are born addicts and may NEVER trigger their disease , but chances are low. Like I said earlier, it may be FOOD or SEX or MONEY or Material things, OR WORK OR DRUGS ... that causes them to trigger their diseased brain into addictive actions ---

 

[t-topflyer]

I go back to my example that "addicts" (alcohol or WHATEVER) have something different in their brain that isnt apparent until it is TRIGGERED by whatever they become addicted to.

Even if they KNOW with FACTS ( and lots of addicts are SMART ) that what they are doing IS KILLING THEM ... they cant stop. Its not that they dont want to stop, they CANT STOP ... its something in their brain.

I also believe that people are born addicts and may NEVER trigger their disease , but chances are low. Like I said earlier, it may be FOOD or SEX or MONEY or Material things, OR WORK OR DRUGS ... that causes them to trigger their diseased brain into addictive actions ---

Bingo you got it!!

The answer to the original posed question/title is actually YES!........it begins as a behavior/choice and ends up a disease.

The physical act of drinking is voluntary behavior and is not the disease. What happens to an alcoholic after that has already been predetermined and you have no control over that it is instilled in you from birth that's the disease part. When it will happen in a said individual is individual and unknown until it's too late. Once you've drunk yourself beyond the point of the power of self control/will power (and contrary to the consensus here, most alcoholics actually have a good bit of this) beyond the alcohol abuse stage and reached the no turning back point, will power will only go so far as to help you seek the outside help you need for the treatment of your disease although this is even difficult. You don't want to drink but have to at the same time.....it's no longer enjoyable........but you have to to survive........you're sick of being tired and tired of being sick and there is nothing you can do on your own without the aid of outside help whether it be counselling, medication, therapy or a combination........that's the nature of the disease and you have no control over those feelings.....worse than the need to eat when your hungary, drink (insert non-alcoholic beverage here) when your thirsty, or go to the bathroom when you seriously need to etc.....for those that don't understand alcoholism, do a little experiment the next time you have diarrhea or get sick and need to vomit just to put things in perspective use your self-control to hold it in and see what happens post up your results too if you don't mind

 

[DailyDrifter]

If anyone cares, i am enjoying another cold beer right now... :biggrin:

I usually stick em in the freezer for 1/2 so they are nice and cold


Take care guys

BW

The freezer works good. I saw on mythbusters that if you put Ice, water and Salt into a container it can cool down a beer thats at room temp to about 40ish degrees in under 10 minutes. It works too.



As far as being a disease or choice...who knows. Personaly I go on binges occasinally but I dont take it to an extreme. I can go for months without getting trashed, but sometimes you gotta let loose. It all comes down to will power. I've done "things" in the past but never developed an addiction for them (except smoking ). Alot of it comes down to personality and your environment. If all of your friends drink heavily chances are you will to, but if all your friends are squares, chances are you'll never have any fun .