ZDDP question

Cutting Edge

2Quick6
I think that if you search the EOS/ZDDP links that you will find that this issue has recently been thrust upon us. Check your local retailers and you will find that the grade of oil is now SM. I did find some SL yesterday on a few containers but most were SM.
Check the threads and you will see everyone knew the reduction in P was coming and the general feeling was buy EOS. I stopped in an out of the way dealership yesterday and the parts mgr laughed and said I would have to get in line if any was found.
So the issue is very recent. In time, given a demand (my guess is that this is a small and declining market), any number of companies may respond-but don't bet on it.
 
i'll take a few minutes to kill a couple birds with one stone------my position???----I am a business man with several corporations and hundreds of employees----i relax and relieve my stress by collecting and working on turbo regals-----i don't like golf, fishing or any other sport or pasttime------i have several dozen gn's and three really nice gnx's and although i could afford virtually any car made i choose to drive gn's on a daily basis------years ago i built several rather large garage buildings where i work on my cars and offer a place for my friends with TR's to work on thier cars--------since i have such a vested interest in TR's i was naturally interested when i started to read magazine articles and internet posts about the formulation changes in motor oil------while i am not the sharpest knife in the kitchen it didn't take me long to see that this could be a problem-------at first i did what everyone else did------i went out and bought cases of EOS and Rotella diesel oil because thats what everyone said was the solution-------even at that i didn't feel comfortable since i saw those solutions as very temporary-------the more i looked into it the more worried i became------then i started having tests done on my oil stockpiles and found that the formulations were changing faster than the information in the magazines and internet posts-------i felt that there was only one solution and that was to see if i could stockpile some ZDDP-------i started on this solution last quarter of 06 and at first felt that if i could get a barrell or two of pure ZDDP i would have things covered------things were not that simple-------i started contacting oil companies and refiners-------a lot of good that did-------i knew i was in trouble when Mobil referred me to their legal dept!-------After making some contacts that didn't actually work out after a couple months i eventually got as far as several large chemical companies. Problem is that most of them had recently quit making the stuff since the worldwide demand had fallen so drastically since 2000------Best i can confirm is that there are only two plants that still make it in volume and i have an unconfirmed report that one of them has stopped recently--------next problem was that there are several types of ZDDP and several quality levels but once i was beyond that educational hurdle i managed to arrange for a shipment--------in order to get what i wanted i had to purchase 36 metric tons and then i had to arrange for it to be shipped on a Hazmat cargo ship since the stuff is so nasty in its raw form-------since i buy chemicals on a somewhat regular basis this was not really a problem------ fortunately one of my larger companies is officially classed by the EPA as a "large waste generator" so i have the facilities and people with knowhow to handle it-------my real problem was that our friends at Shell Oil somehow got in the middle of this and actually put a stop to the shipment--------seems that they also deal with this source and were able to put the screws to me-------fortunately one of my business partners is friends with the trade ambassador to the country in question and he was able to pull some strings for me and get things moving--------it took me nearly 8 months to get my shipment from the day i started to the day it landed at my dock--------i'm not going to say what i had in this project to this point but it would easily buy several nice GNX's even at todays prices--------why does dennis sell the stuff--------a couple reasons--------in order to get exactly what i wanted i had to buy a lot more than i could ever possibly use--------in discussions with dennis he expressed an interest in marketing this to the rest of the TR and old car market-------this offer seemed fine to me and we hammered out a deal--------if there had been a reasonable alternative i would never have gone to so much trouble and expense-------i have what i need and if i never sell a drop of this i can sit back and feel confident that my cars are taken care of--------i am not interested in selling oil additives and i would feel that at least some folks would be glad that dennis has worked out an arrangement that everyone can benefit from my efforts to care for my own cars--------if another suitable alternative comes along that should be even better for everyone but i have yet to see it-----------any questions please feel free to ask------- if you doubt me if you are a member of this board and doubt my sincere interest in TR's you are always welcome to stop by my shop------thats all it should take for you to become a believer...............
 
Thanks for your hard work Richard, it was not clear that you are the hertitage of ZDDPlus. I've got 3 flat tapped motered cars and have been looking for an alternation knowing that P levels in current oils was dropping, I just didn't realize how quick that was happening.
 
if you doubt me if you are a member of this board and doubt my sincere interest in TR's you are always welcome to stop by my shop------thats all it should take for you to become a believer...............



Richard Clark is a stand up guy. I met him a few weeks ago and got to take atour of his SHOP and it was gn/tr stuff every where!


Richard has jim got his car done yet that you know of?

I plan on stopping by again some time to chat with ya. i had a great time the last time i was there. just wanna say thanks for sharing the interest.
 
What would the expected shelf life of ZDDPlus be? If I bought several 6-packs since I have 3 flat tappet cars, enough to get me for the next 10 or so years of oil changes, would it last that long on the shelf?
Worried there may be NO alternative in 10 years available if it was that difficult to get it produced now.
 
What would the expected shelf life of ZDDPlus be? If I bought several 6-packs since I have 3 flat tappet cars, enough to get me for the next 10 or so years of oil changes, would it last that long on the shelf?
Worried there may be NO alternative in 10 years available if it was that difficult to get it produced now.

Good point, might be worth stocking up now as long as it'll survive on the shelf...
 
WELL i just bought 2 bottles of EOS at the local GM DEALER ,I am in canada and the counter person had no idea what i was talking about when i told him that this product was discontinued ..HE LAUGHED AT ME...does it say stupid on my forehead....lol ,,,,by the way the shelf was full of bottles for 8 6 4 cyl. cars
 
My local dealer has 4 bottles but the price has also gone up to over $9 a bottle. So if all I've read here is true, the EOS is now the same price as the new additive and less effective, bottle for bottle. Suddenly ZDDPlus makes good financial sense..:biggrin:
 
i called my local chevy dealer and i got to order the last 3 bottles of EOS within a 80 miles radius. I plan on ordering some zddplus from kirban. but i'm ready to fire a refreshed engine with a new used flat -tappet cam. so i plan on adding 2 bottles of eos @ start-up and then raun the motor for a bit and change it and add the last bottle. or should i just add 1 bottle of eos during break in and then add the other 2 bottles of EOS @ the next oil change? I have never broken in a new flat tappet cam. so any info of how i should best break the cam in to provided the most protection for my cam. BTW the cam came out of a already running engine i just installed it in mine with new lifters.


Thanks for all the help. i'm still learning:)
 
What would the expected shelf life of ZDDPlus be? If I bought several 6-packs since I have 3 flat tappet cars, enough to get me for the next 10 or so years of oil changes, would it last that long on the shelf?
Worried there may be NO alternative in 10 years available if it was that difficult to get it produced now.

i have been asked this several times-------i cannot state with total certainty the answer------most oil companies say their products are good for at least 5 years??? ----i don't really know what that means since the dinosaurs died millions of years ago/just kidding!!!-------certainly its the additives that would determine the shelf life since i believe oil would last nearly forever until it evaporated and thats not going to happen very fast in a sealed container------heres my best educated guess at the present time and subject to change if i get better info-------my reference has always been EOS------my goal was to replace or better that product-----i had stockpiled lots of EOS and about one third of it was packaged in the two previous container designs instead of the familiar black bottle-----some of these bottles were VERY old------i tested both the old stuff and new stuff and it was essentially identical-------since ZddPlus is the exact same thing i would like to think that its would last at least as the EOS did and i know i have some that dates back at least 20+ years---------it is possible that the increased concentration could affect this since ZddPlus is 8 times more concentrated (twice as much in 4oz instead of 16oz)-----its could also be possible that the increased concentration could help it last------who knows??????------naturally i contacted the manufacturer months ago about this and their response was "indefinite" (whatever that means) as long as the container is sealed and moisture was not allowed to enter the container------it should be stored below 120F degrees -------they went on to say that if it did absorb moisture that it could be "restored" by slowly heating to 100C till it appeared clear---------it was obvious that they didnt' have customers that stored this stuff for long periods of time---------i can say that i am counting on it having a long shelf life--------perhaps if we get through the next 10 years another miracle additive will be discovered-----right now the oil companies are counting on boron for the newer cars but the demands are not so stringent as flat tappet cams-------problem for me is that boron was considered and evaluated back in the 60's and was found inferior to ZDDP which prevailed for decades...................RC
 
Richard has jim got his car done yet that you know of?

I plan on stopping by again some time to chat with ya. i had a great time the last time i was there. just wanna say thanks for sharing the interest.

Jims car is back in the big shop on the lift------he's changing the rear back to a 342 from the 373 since he wasn't totally happy with it-----he thought it dropped his MPH at the track------he's also adding heavy duty axles with Cclip eliminators-------most folks have heard of "trailer queens"-------we tease jim and call his car a "lift queen"......................RC
 
Jims car is back in the big shop on the lift------he's changing the rear back to a 342 from the 373 since he wasn't totally happy with it-----he thought it dropped his MPH at the track------he's also adding heavy duty axles with Cclip eliminators-------most folks have heard of "trailer queens"-------we tease jim and call his car a "lift queen"......................RC



hahah I'll have to remember that and tease him about it.
 
I have known Richard for two plus years and I am amazed at his interest/dedication to the GN hobbyist/owner. He will do whatever he can to help owners with their cars and I have not seen him accept one penny for his assistance. If I had to pay him for all the work he has done on my car I would be destitute and living on the street. My wife doesn't know this, though. :) If you haven't seen his garages, you will be amazed at the tools, equipment, parts, and cars when you do. Richard is a straight shooter, extremely knowledgeable/intelligent and a true asset to us T-R owners.

I try to go to Richard's garage at least three times a week and during those visits I have been privy to the time and money he has invested in researching/testing and obtaining the ZDDP. This has not been a small undertaking (as he stated above) but he was committed to doing it because he saw a need for it due to the lack of critical additives in today's engine oils. He has spent a lot of money sending oil/additive samples to independent labs for analysis so he could determine what their actual contents are. We Buick owners should be very appreciative for the hard work, time, and money that Richard has invested to come up with a product that will help our engines live longer and help prevent cam lobe failure. Without his commitment, we would be SOL since EOS is no longer available and the current oils are not to the standard required for our cars. Thanks Richard for all the personal help and the ZDDP.
 
Richard, thank you for your detailed response regarding "your position and interest...", and all the hard work towards increased longevity of our turbo Buicks. It was certainly NOT my position to try to flame you--but to bring-out your pertinent and credible background and dedication to development of this much-needed product. I felt there were some readers that were not aware of your knowledge base for ZDDP & would otherwise be more skeptical of the new product--ZddPlus.

I had been following Dennis Kirban's ongoing reporting (as a member of his "Inner Circle") of this product development and was aware of your presentation recently given at Dennis's Open House--sure wish I could have made it, but alas...

I really would like to see your facility & drool (I'll bring a bib).:smile:

As an aside, I was able to score 4 bottles of EOS several weeks ago (b4 "Open House" & your product roll-out)--but then ended up with a roller cam in engine rebuild shortly thereafter...:rolleyes: Guess I'll test shelf life of it while perhaps waiting on acquisition of another "flat-tappet" GN.:D
 
turbo monte------don't worry,no offense taken-----i just want guys to know what they need to know to protect their cars BEFORE its too late-----its not gonna take a lot of driving on SM oil to do irreversable damage to their TR's------i also realize that the oil additive business has a worse image than the used car salesmen and quite honestly it deserves it-----the term "snake oil" was probably coined just for that industry and i hate to be any part of it ------but with circumstances what they are i felt no other choice but to jump in and deal with the issues and all i want guys to know is : there is a real problem and there is a real solution.................RC

BTW i see you are nearby------if you ever need the use of specialized tooling or dyno time you are always welcome to visit-------its always free to guys with TR's................RC
 
Richard, thanks for the invite & opportunity. I have some other friends (old & retired also) in the area--so you never know...

Hummm, now when I get my GN out of tranny shop...:)
 
Thanks

Hi Richard and T.B. friends

Just a quick thanks for piping in on the Z question. I have searched for info on this many times over the years. ( I had a "wiped cam" experience ) This is the most informative thread on the subject.
Looking fwd to the test results and any other links you may have bookmarked that we should read up on to further understand this urgent matter.
This thread should be considered for a "sticky" IMO.

I do have a question.
Whats your opinion on synth for flat tappet cams ?
I'm afraid to try as opinions are not consistant. I'm currently a rotella ( still have some of the the old pkg ) / EOS user on the recent rebuilt LC2.

Thanks

Steve.
 
Hi Richard and T.B. friends


I do have a question.
Whats your opinion on synth for flat tappet cams ?
I'm afraid to try as opinions are not consistant. I'm currently a rotella ( still have some of the the old pkg ) / EOS user on the recent rebuilt LC2.

Thanks

Steve.

steve----------i'm not a tribologist------the only segment of that field that i feel well studied on is limited to the ZDDP additive------- but i am a pretty good intuitive mechanical and electrical engineer and like most i do have opinions that have been formed over the years based on experiences and exposure to information---------here goes ----------any oil has its limits for shear, temp, etc.--------and no matter what kind of oil when those limits are exceeded there is substandard performance----------in most areas of an engine oil has it pretty easy---------consider the crank journals where there is a finite space and the oil is pressurized to 20-80 psi or more and the bearing contact area is several square inches--------with the exception of dry start up no metal ever touches metal and even if it does when the oil pressure builds after a few seconds everything is fine---------consider the cam/lifter interface--------the oil supply is from splash and drip------there is no pressurized oil on the cam lobe surface-------with every rotation of the cam the oil is literally scraped and squeezed from the contact point-------even in a stock turbo regal the open spring pressure is over 200 lbs--------multiply this by the rocker ratio and then look at the actual contact area when the slightly rounded lifter face is at the peak of the rounded cam lobe---------this can result in total contact area of fractions of a square inch---------the actual pressure calculated per square inch is tens of thousands of lbs per sq inch!!!!!--------do the math it will shock you--------what does this mean?????--------there is no oil------- dino or syn that can protect this contact area UNLESS there is some kind of special additive that works outside the realm of hydroplaning-------i know that you know where this logic leads---------i really don't think it makes much difference to your cam if you use dino or syn oil as long as it has adequate additive packages to protect it---------the characteristics of synthetic oil is truly impressive but when it comes to the real world they really do little for the average car------the base oil really doesn't wear out if its physical limits are not exceeded---------oil eventually gets diluted by fuel, combustion byproducts etc,------ it gets contaminated by particulates etc, and its additives eventually wear out----------syn and non syn are plagued equally by these same problems and the additives are similar for both----------the real advantages for synthetic oils come into play at temperature extremes---------the viscosity ratings of syn and non syn 10w-30 oil are essentially similar at 0 deg and 200 deg----------where your TR engine actually operates----------its not until the temps rise or fall well in excess of this that the synthetics real advantages start to emerge---------in certain industrial, aerospace and other specialized applications synthetics really outpace regular lubricants but i really don't think it means a darn to your cam if you use syn or non syn--------i have a CTS-V that is specified to use syn but it has a 200 degree thermostat and i consider that a special application---------over the years i too have heard the claims made for synthetics as well as the supposed horror stories-------i consider the source of most of the rumors, opinions, tales etc and file them away in the "nonsense file"--------my favorite tales are the claims of increased mileage that some of the "specialty oils" claim------its interesting that those claims are usually made in the form of "customer testimonials" as opposed to legally binding corporate advertising claims------------but thats just my opinion...............................RC
 
i'll take a few minutes to kill a couple birds with one stone------my position???----I am a business man with several corporations and hundreds of employees----i relax and relieve my stress by collecting and working on turbo regals-----i don't like golf, fishing or any other sport or pasttime------i have several dozen gn's and three really nice gnx's and although i could afford virtually any car made i choose to drive gn's on a daily basis------years ago i built several rather large garage buildings where i work on my cars and offer a place for my friends with TR's to work on thier cars--------since i have such a vested interest in TR's i was naturally interested when i started to read magazine articles and internet posts about the formulation changes in motor oil------while i am not the sharpest knife in the kitchen it didn't take me long to see that this could be a problem-------at first i did what everyone else did------i went out and bought cases of EOS and Rotella diesel oil because thats what everyone said was the solution-------even at that i didn't feel comfortable since i saw those solutions as very temporary-------the more i looked into it the more worried i became------then i started having tests done on my oil stockpiles and found that the formulations were changing faster than the information in the magazines and internet posts-------i felt that there was only one solution and that was to see if i could stockpile some ZDDP-------i started on this solution last quarter of 06 and at first felt that if i could get a barrell or two of pure ZDDP i would have things covered------things were not that simple-------i started contacting oil companies and refiners-------a lot of good that did-------i knew i was in trouble when Mobil referred me to their legal dept!-------After making some contacts that didn't actually work out after a couple months i eventually got as far as several large chemical companies. Problem is that most of them had recently quit making the stuff since the worldwide demand had fallen so drastically since 2000------Best i can confirm is that there are only two plants that still make it in volume and i have an unconfirmed report that one of them has stopped recently--------next problem was that there are several types of ZDDP and several quality levels but once i was beyond that educational hurdle i managed to arrange for a shipment--------in order to get what i wanted i had to purchase 36 metric tons and then i had to arrange for it to be shipped on a Hazmat cargo ship since the stuff is so nasty in its raw form-------since i buy chemicals on a somewhat regular basis this was not really a problem------ fortunately one of my larger companies is officially classed by the EPA as a "large waste generator" so i have the facilities and people with knowhow to handle it-------my real problem was that our friends at Shell Oil somehow got in the middle of this and actually put a stop to the shipment--------seems that they also deal with this source and were able to put the screws to me-------fortunately one of my business partners is friends with the trade ambassador to the country in question and he was able to pull some strings for me and get things moving--------it took me nearly 8 months to get my shipment from the day i started to the day it landed at my dock--------i'm not going to say what i had in this project to this point but it would easily buy several nice GNX's even at todays prices--------why does dennis sell the stuff--------a couple reasons--------in order to get exactly what i wanted i had to buy a lot more than i could ever possibly use--------in discussions with dennis he expressed an interest in marketing this to the rest of the TR and old car market-------this offer seemed fine to me and we hammered out a deal--------if there had been a reasonable alternative i would never have gone to so much trouble and expense-------i have what i need and if i never sell a drop of this i can sit back and feel confident that my cars are taken care of--------i am not interested in selling oil additives and i would feel that at least some folks would be glad that dennis has worked out an arrangement that everyone can benefit from my efforts to care for my own cars--------if another suitable alternative comes along that should be even better for everyone but i have yet to see it-----------any questions please feel free to ask------- if you doubt me if you are a member of this board and doubt my sincere interest in TR's you are always welcome to stop by my shop------thats all it should take for you to become a believer...............

Who spends all this time, money and research just to ensure their oil has enough chemicals in it to help their cars. You are definitely OCD. I can't believe how similar we are. That is very strange. You are definitely a buick man. I like it.

i relax and relieve my stress by collecting and working on turbo regals. Outstanding. So there are others like me... I have to show this to my girlfriend. (im obsessive compulsive about my car, and i spend more time with it than my girl, or friends. she's quite pissed)

i have several dozen gn's and three really nice gnx's Where did you say you lived again? lol just kidding. If you need a live in detailer/porter, let me know lol. If I never touched another car besides a buick again, I be totally fine with that.

years ago i built several rather large garage buildings where i work on my cars and offer a place for my friends with TR's to work on thier cars
Wow, you think just like me. If I had all that money, that's the first thing I would have done as well. You're soo lucky.

I have learned volumes about oil content (I'm very anal as well about my oil) from reading this. Thank you soo much for doing the legwork on this. You definitely seem to be an asset to this board, with your funding, and inclination to do extensive research for our cars. Keep up the good work. I don't doubt any other members dedication, but unfortunately, ya need 3 things. And they all have to be in alignment at the same time. Time, money, and motivation. Everyone here for the most part has all 3. But it's few and far between when they appear all at the same time lol. I LOVE it, that you had all 3, and chose to dedicate that to our turbo buicks. It's a beautiful thing.

One question though. Our flat tappet cams need more protection than others because why. Is this just a function of design, or was it what our cams were made out of, and how they were heat treated. Like the old "leaded gas is for non hardened valve seats" deal. My question is, if we made our valve seats out of our newer technology metals, that reduced the need for lead, (plus the whole cat converter deal too) can we make cams that are even more wear resistant? Are todays stock replacement cams for our cars, WAY better than yesteryears? Or does that matter because it's the design that causes the failures. Tell me whatcha know.
 
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