ZDDP question

B

Brian Mc

Tree Fiddy
Joined
May 27, 2002
I've been out of the loop for a while and have not heard until recently of the lack of cam protection the newer oils provide for a flat lifter engine. My TR has 120K on the stock cam, and all is quiet with no issues to report. I had taken the engine apart recently for a reseal/inspect and cam looked good, so it went back in.

Does it need this supplement? I don't really drive it much anymore, and I just changed the oil with NAPA 10w30 standard oil.
 
If it was my car and the engine was near stock, ie flat tappet cam/lifters i would absolutely use it unless i was using one of the "exotic oils" that is guaranteed to have adequate levels of ZDDP. Unfortunately most of these manufacturers of what i call "exotic" oils are somewhat lacking on hard data and generous on "promises" and rely on baseless testimonials. Last week i had Mobil one SM 10-30 and Valvoline "dino" SM 10-30 checked and each one has ZERO phosphorus!--------both of these oils have shown a drastic reduction since only three months ago-------each of them did have .07% Zinc but that does little good for wear protection------pure Zinc only serves as an anti corrosion inhibitor--------remember the ZDDP molecule is defined by a composition of Zinc, Sulfur, and Phosphorus that is combined in a special process---------- you cannot have ZDDP without al three---------it is really an interesting situation and it is clear that the industry in general doesn't give a hoot about older cars---------the much touted Rotella 15-40 CJ-4 is also way down on ZDDP contrary to what everyone seems to think--------the highest i have been able to find in the last 60 days is Castrol "Tection" at .05%---------i would never trust an oil with .05% to protect any of my valuable TR's
 
It's good that everything appeared in great shape when you had the engine apart but I still don't think it would hurt to run the additive. There seems to be plenty of evidence that modern oils really aren't ideal for older engines. Over the years many additives and other "magic bottles" just seem like hype but this seems to be the real deal. Or maybe I fell for the hype. :p

Either way a 6-pack of bottles is $50-60 and I don't mind spending that if it means my engine might be safer.
 
Maybe use the STP additive? About $3.00 a bottle.
Or EOS, if you can find it for about $7.00.
 
Chuck Leeper said:
Maybe use the STP additive? About $3.00 a bottle.
Or EOS, if you can find it for about $7.00.
Click to expand...

here's the problem with your solutions----STP? this product has just enough "zddp" to list it as an ingredient for marketing appeal but not enough to do your older car any good at all-----heres the math-----STP comes in a 15 oz bottle that contains .65% zinc and .10% phosp by weight-----when you add this to a 5 qt oil change (160 oz.) the percentages are diluted by about ten times-----this results in the addition of .065% zinc to your oil and .01% phosp-------now consider that you add this to one of the quality 10w-30 oils i just mentioned in the last post-------Mobil one has .07% zinc which would equal .14% zinc total-----this is certainly arguably adequate by any standards but there is a problem------the phosp total would only still be .01% which is a real problem-------the fact that there is zinc does not mean there is ZDDP because the zddp molecule is a combination of zinc and phosp in a particular chemical compound and if the ratio is not close to .8:1 it is not ZDDP------Zinc and phosp by themselves or even mixed seperately do not offer the same protection as the actual synthesized molecule-------As for EOS at least it has real ZDDP in it-------there are only two little problems with EOS------first is that EOS was formulated years ago when it was intended to boost the amount of ZDDP that was already in the existing oil-------this results in a rather minimal protection-------lets do the math again-----EOS comes in a 16 oz bottle------it has .71% zinc and .53% phosp by weight------add to 5 qts oil and this is diluted by ten times resulting in .07% zinc and .05% phosp----if the fill were SM mobil one 10-30 or valvoline 10-30 the numbers would fall about 50% short of the reccomended values for API SF oil our cars were designed around-------bottom line is that to get an adequate amount of protection from EOS for modern SM oils requires TWO bottles of of a product that is now DISCONTINUED, thats the second problem with EOS--------while we are doing the math consider ZddPlus in a 4 oz bottle--------it contains about 6.5% zinc and 5.3% phosp (8 times the concetration of EOS)--------add it to 5 qts of oil and it is diluted 40 times resulting in 0.16% zinc and 0.13% phosp which is close to where you need to be for SF spec oil and it is not just zinc and phosp but REAL ZDDP--------considering that is is equal to two bottles of EOS for 10 bucks and you can add it to any off the shelf SM oil and have real protection it would seem a relative bargain-------except for the "exotic" specialty oils there is really no other good choice for our cars-----i have not found a single credible additive that restores the ZDDP levels required by our cars and i honestly believe i have totally searched the market--------this is why i did this in the first place since i have several dozen GN's and felt i had no reasonable option..............RC
 
So, the ? then is posed:
Where do we buy this ZDDPlus stuff?
Thank god, I don't have "several dozen" GN's!! 1 was too much for me.
 
Amsoil?

who carries the AMO and ARO oils? I know my fellow Indiana turbo buds would appreciate this info...Thanks.
 
I've just started sending samples of my oil off to Blackstone Laboratories for analysis and for my daily drivers I use just Castrol Sytec Bland 20w/50 and they came back with 815 phosphorus parts per million and 1023 zinc parts per million which is a little above average which is 704 and 839 for specific motor I used it in....but what I'm getting at is I'll try this zddp additive and send the oil off and see if those parts increase significantly....but it would be a while..I'll add it after the next oil change, then it would be another 3k miles before I sent it off.
 
Really a question of $$$$

I use Red Line 10w30 oil so I wrote to them last month and they replied:
"Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, our motor oils contain 1230 ppm zinc and more importantly 1100 ppm phosphorus, this is sufficient for good flat tappet cam protection additional shouldn't be required." I am also still using the stock 80# valve springs.
However, you are looking at $8-$9/qt + shipping. Since I drive about 300 miles/year, it is of no significance but if this was an everyday driver, it would be cost effective to use a less exotic oil & ZDDPlus.
 
guys-----i hate to bring bad news to what seems to be a simple subject BUT there is a serious misunderstanding displayed in this thread------i do not have time to go into detail tonight but i want to briefly touch on clarifying the error-----If for a moment we can agree that the long proven additive ZDDP is good for our cars it will let me get to the real subject-------ZDDP is a combination of zinc, sulfur, and phosphorous--------this recipe of ingredients are combined and "cooked" in a chemical process that results in ZDDP------the process is so nasty and dangerous that it is no longer done anywhere in the United States and it must be done BEFORE the zinc and Phosp is added to the oil------like a cake that has ingredients of flour, eggs, sugar and baking soda the ingredients of ZDDP must be combined and processed in a certain way (and quantity) or they don't result in ZDDP-----imagine a bowl where eggs, sugar, baking soda and flour were just thrown in---------it would have the same ingredients as a real cake but i can guarantee you which would make the best birthday cake!!!!-------testing your oil before you put it in the engine doesn't guarantee it has real zddp even if all the ingredients are there in the proper amount------if the ratios are properly balanced it is possible that it does--------- but it is no guarantee----------furthermore testing your oil AFTER it is removed from service tells even less since zinc content actually goes up as a by product of use and zddp starts depleting the moment you start your engine--------a simple chemical analysis will not actually tell if you have real ZDDP-------the chemical analysis of a living and dead horse will look identical-------i don't mean to sound trivial but a lot is taken for granted when we trust a simple chemical analysis like is provided for less than $100 bucks-----------i'll try tomorrow afternoon to touch on this subject in real detail and cover what is the difference in real zddp and just zinc and phosphorous and what is required to actually measure the quantity of zddp in motor oil....................RC
 
ZDDP continuation

Typical oil analysis use atomic mass spectroscopy. There are various methods of performing this analysis, but the results are the same: The relative mass ratios of constituent atoms are measured. This means that in the case of Zn, the relative strength of the Zn reading is due to the TOTAL zinc in the original sample. This total Zn includes atomic Zn that is in the oil PLUS the Zn in the zinc oxide which some oil incorporates as an acidity buffer, PLUS the Zn which was a constituent of the ZDDP...
Only the Zn that is incorporated into the ZDDP molecule acts as an EP agent, so the atomic mass of all of the Zn is not an accurate measure of the ZDDP content.
There are other techniques for analyzing the molecular makeup of oil that can pinpoint the ZDDP molecule as opposed to the atomic Zn or P in the oil. One method is the FTIR (Fourier Transform InfraRed) Spectroscopy. There is a good write up on the advantages of this technique in the Sept/Oct issue of the Practicing Oil Analysis Magazine.

Molecular Spectroscopy - A Precision Lubrication Tool?

We will be posting actual ZDDP molecular test results for ZddPlus as well as a few other "lubrication products" soon. As usual, a thinking person should be skeptical of any product claims that are unsupported by actual test results, preferably multiple test results. Remember; current oil formulations are rapidly changing, and the Zn and P levels are a moving target. We believe that a test more than 90 days old needs to be viewed as a questionable representation of the currently available oil formulation.
 
SNOWBIRD said:
Now I Am Really Confused......a Can Of Eos Was So Simple
Click to expand...

whats so complicated about ZddPlus???-------buy any quality oil at the local auto store, walmart etc for a couple dollars a quart and add a 9 dollar bottle and you have the performance of $40 or more of "specialty oils".........RC
 
A2000RICH said:
whats so complicated about ZddPlus???-------buy any quality oil at the local auto store, walmart etc for a couple dollars a quart and add a 9 dollar bottle and you have the performance of $40 or more of "specialty oils".........RC
Click to expand...
I undestand most of what you are saying about the analysis, but it was unclear whether or not you are supporting the claims of ZDDP in that writeup, but this statement indicates you do, correct?
 
2QUIK6 said:
I undestand most of what you are saying about the analysis, but it was unclear whether or not you are supporting the claims of ZDDP in that writeup, but this statement indicates you do, correct?
Click to expand...
------i really don't think that ZDDP needs any credibility boost since it has successfully protected engines for nearly 70 years and to date no one has found a better replacement---------i am questioning the uncertainty of some of the products that claim to have adequate amounts of ZDDP and don't support it with credible evidence----------i have gone to a great expense and effort to have many of these products tested and have found that they all aren't what they claim to be.............RC
 
Richard C, have you identified your position and interest in the use of ZddPlus product? Sorry if I missed it earlier...
 
TurboMonte 2 said:
Richard C, have you identified your position and interest in the use of ZddPlus product? Sorry if I missed it earlier...
Click to expand...

That was really my question was does ZDDPlus have the appropriate levels of ZDDP to add the needed protection and not does ZDDP itself as a compound substance work?

For the analysis mentioned above its difficult to tell if the needed amounts are in the oil after its been used. I find it interesting that Kirban is the only distributor for ZDDPlus, thats makes it look a little fishy...to me if its a proven product, why isn't theor more distributors?
 
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