Where To Buy Dreaded Power Master Unit???

bmackinnon said:
You have to click on Brake Master Cylinder, then 'related parts', 'Power Brake Booster'...

AutoZone.com | Shopping | Parts | Product Detail - Brake Power Booster

This is for my zip - 35976 -
Part #52-9700, Cardone Reman. Power Brake Booster, '86 Buick Electra Estate Wagon, 5.0L 4BBL, $311.99 + $57 core = $368.99 total

and for the Regal.....
AutoZone.com | Shopping | Parts | Product Detail - Brake Power Booster

Part #52-9702, Cardone Reman. Power Brake Booster, '86 Buick Regal, 3.8 SFI Turbo OHV (VIN 7), $547.99 + $57 core = $604.99 total

Call your guy at autozone, give him the Estate Wagon part number, get that one, and swap your reservoir before you return your core.... or if it were me, I'd just keep my good core, and eat the $57....

They will probably have to order the part.... may take a few days....

Start another thread if you want to learn about the swap to vac.... or just do a 'search' on 'vacuum brakes' .... and don't believe anyone who says the vacuum brakes suck.... there is that camp that just can't accept them, but they feel/work just like any late 80's GM vac brake car.... GM put them on the Turbo TA's for a reason.... :cool:
Click to expand...

I was just wondering is the Estate Wagon basically the same thing because its so much cheaper then the ones for the 86-87 T Regals?? Just wondering the difference in price between the 2.Is it because of the reservoir??
 
Yup - they're identical save for the reservoir.... suppy and demand, my friend... :smile: And they've figured out that the TR units are purchased ALOT more frequently.... can you say 'profit'???? :eek: (they used to be the same price, or about $10-$15 apart)....
 
at7we2 said:
Like someone else has already stated, find out what's wrong with your's first - *especially* if you only have 7k miles on it!! It's usually the accumulator that fails and Kirban Performance sells new ones (they're not GM, but they are a very high quality part Kirban had specially produced for the GM Powermaster unit).

I was wondering does a bad accumulator make a fuel pump type noise when it goes bad as well as it leaking?? The only thing is that the sitting and storage of the car might not have been good for the Power Master unit even though I put only about 7 or 8,000 miles on that unit.
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ReaL99 said:
I use to live 5 minutes away from Kirban's in PA. but moved a bit north.The $450 plus exchange seems like a good deal and a lifetime guarantee is nice.I don't know if my whole unit is going bad but the car has been sitting for a while and i don't know if playing around with parts is the way to go.:cool:
Click to expand...

I would call Kirban's and talk to Dennis about your problem. His son, who lives close by him does repair work on Turbo Regals- you might get him to look at yours and if it can't be fixed, you can have him install one from his dad. :)
 
Bad accumulator will make it run/cycle more often than normal, as pressure bleeds down from the bulb faster than it should. If it's louder than usual, that probably indicates a motor or pump degradation. I'm certainly not a PM expert, but I'd be a bit nervous about overly noisy operation. It may well be fine in that respect.... I mean, they DO make noise, like a fuel pump. Is it cycling alot? Do the 'pump the pedal 10-15 times w/key off' to depressurize the accum., and then time the key-on to brake lite-off sequence. It's spelled out in the links above. If that test is ok, then I wouldn't be quite as concerned, as that indicates the pump/motor are doing their job. That is assuming the noise isn't way unusual. Also, assuming it hasn't blown the PM fuse..... yet..... Maybe you've sort of forgotten the normal noise level as your car has been sleeping??? I know I could usually hear/feel (barely) mine when it cycled. I think you need to clean the unit real well too, and make it cycle a few times to try and nail down exactly where the leakage is occurring.

Like I said above, if you want to stick w/ the powermonster, the price is only going to go up from here on out. I'd go ahead and get a replacement, regardless, as that will give you an out when it does finally die... and you'll have a lifetime warranty that will cover it for free, again, and again.

I guess it just depends on your preference and confidence level of both the equipment and your ability to react should you have a failure. If your a stickler for factory original, that's fine. I was willing to sacrifice that bit of originality, for the peace of mind that vacuum brings.... I had mine go out, and I knew instantly what happened and was able to compensate (with my legs of steel...:p ) It went out on the previous owner (well, blew the fuse), and he hit a utility pole... so there you have it.

As a side note, anyone who wasn't aware of the powermaster system would never know that the vac. system wasn't factory installed in my car. It looks absolutely factory on mine. Good luck, and if you decide to convert, myself and many others can guide you well in the process. It's really easy.... one afternoon job.
 
bmackinnon said:
Yup - they're identical save for the reservoir.... suppy and demand, my friend... :smile: And they've figured out that the TR units are purchased ALOT more frequently.... can you say 'profit'???? :eek: (they used to be the same price, or about $10-$15 apart)....
Click to expand...

guys-----got some news------the turbo unit is different from the non turbo units------its not just the external appearance-----some of the internal parts are different such as piston stroke lengths and spring pressures--------the turbo specific units are capable of higher line pressures--------thats one of the problems with getting units from some sources-------some of them pay no attention to the differences and you have no way of knowing if you are really getting a turbo unit--------and the biggest reason for early failure is fluid contamination--------if you want the units to last change the fluid at least once a year even if you don't drive it............RC
 
Well, if Rich said it, then I believe it, and stand corrected. I am curious though, why the turbo unit would have higher pressure capability than the wagon units, as I would ASSume the wagons are significantly heavier than the Regals, and would thus seemingly require more robust braking components. Perhaps the wagon calipers/discs/brake cylinders, etc. are such that they can provide the additional braking at less pressure than the regals? I am also wondering how significant the differences are in practical application. Thoughts Rich??
 
I never replaced the fluid in the 8 to 10 years I have had this Power Master unit.It may just need a accumulator but Im no pro when understanding these things.Its not worth getting in an accident when Im unsure.I know I never heard the Power Master as loud as it is now.Sounds like a Holley Blue fuel pump.First one went bad after 10 years and about 96,000 miles and this one after another 10 years and 8,000 miles might have just been sitting to long.
 
bmackinnon said:
Well, if Rich said it, then I believe it, and stand corrected. I am curious though, why the turbo unit would have higher pressure capability than the wagon units, as I would ASSume the wagons are significantly heavier than the Regals, and would thus seemingly require more robust braking components. Perhaps the wagon calipers/discs/brake cylinders, etc. are such that they can provide the additional braking at less pressure than the regals? I am also wondering how significant the differences are in practical application. Thoughts Rich??
Click to expand...
i'll take some measurements and pictures of the differences-----been meaning to do it for quite some time and just put it off------i am just as interested as you are.........RC
 
Agree Eric... piston length shouldn't affect pressure capability... dia.- yes, length - no. I believe my question is answered. Swap the reservoir, use the original bracket (and rod?), and in practical application, the difference is nil??
 
ReaL99 said:
I never replaced the fluid in the 8 to 10 years I have had this Power Master unit.It may just need a accumulator but Im no pro when understanding these things.Its not worth getting in an accident when Im unsure.I know I never heard the Power Master as loud as it is now.Sounds like a Holley Blue fuel pump.First one went bad after 10 years and about 96,000 miles and this one after another 10 years and 8,000 miles might have just been sitting to long.
Click to expand...
ReaL,

After reading some of your posts, you would probably be best served to replace the entire unit as a whole. Kirbans has the best deal going right now. Give him your old unit for the core and you can get going again. 8yr old fluid that has been sitting in that P/M isn't doing any good. If you change the fluid and patch it up it's going to deterioriate the seals that haven't been in good fluid for soo long (ask me how I know).

The vacuum brake converts have thier argument, but here's mine for the P/M: It's far superior to vacuum when maintained properly. It's maintanence that makes the difference. Yes, it was an experiment. But GM didn't give it enought thought for the long haul.

Set up your new unit properly and you will have good brakes.
Let me know if you need any help.
Z
 
Two words: Vacuum Brakes.

The biggest benefit is that you will never slam into another car/building/garage if/when the P/M fails. Vacuum brakes may have a hair less stopping power but it is not a huge difference on my GN. It was a bit of a pain in the ass getting the pedal swapped out, but I'm very glad I did it.

I got a reman'd Master Cylinder & Reservoir for ~$20, vacuum booster ~$125, got the pedal off of a Monte SS at the junkyard for $5.
 
turbofish38 said:
Check out this thread. Scroll down to my post on #3. http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/br...between-wagon-powermaster-gn-powermaster.html

Okay if everything but an internal piston and the push rod is the same, than how the heck can the TR unit be capable of more pressure? I'm assuming the same pedal to rod ratio between the two platforms so it aint from mechanical advantage.:confused:
Click to expand...

eric-------i agree that piston diameter will not alone change applied pressure---but in a multi stage device the relative strokes of staged pistons could easily result in a combined pressure change for a given amount of stroke------i have not quantified the differences scientifically but intend to do so soon-----i have seen a few cases where changing units from one style to another made what were perceived to be differences in pedal feel and response-------but there is always the placebo effect and i don't take that lightly-------i do have a precision bench fixture that i can measure line pressures with calibrated activation pressures and stroke distance-------i am going to do this when i get time-------there has to be something more to this--------GM chose to make several parts different and non interchangable and they usually dont do such things without a cost or performance reason-------the reaction piston is different .450" vs .300" ----the reaction body group is different to fit the shorter piston------the primary piston is different E-11 vs E-14-------and the secondary piston is different E-6 vs E-7 and none of them are interchangable------and those differences are only specified for the turbo application--------hard to believe they went to all this trouble for no functional difference and just as hard to believe its for cost reasons since the parts are very similar except for size---------when i get a chance i am going to rebuild two units and test them in my fixture with the same accumulator, pump and switch installed on both units----------if after all this effort there is no functional difference we will just have another clear reason why GM is so good at losing money...............RC
 
Maybe the difference is because of the fluid capacity difference between the two chassis? G-body is 10.5 rotor/metric caliper/9.5 drum/7/8 cylinder. B-Wagon is 12" rotor/big caliper/11" drum/1 1/16" cylinder. You know how guys swear that using the bigger B-body MC on a vacuum booster conversion gives them a firmer pedal?(which is BS BTW) I'm thinking the same logic applies on the PowerMaster. The Wagon PM is bigger just to handle the increased fluid capacity or what ever you want to call it.

Hmmm? I wonder with a push rod and reservoir swap if the B-Wagon PM would be the hot set up if you are running the 1LE/LS1 brakes?
 
turbofish38 said:
Maybe the difference is because of the fluid capacity difference between the two chassis? G-body is 10.5 rotor/metric caliper/9.5 drum/7/8 cylinder. B-Wagon is 12" rotor/big caliper/11" drum/1 1/16" cylinder. You know how guys swear that using the bigger B-body MC on a vacuum booster conversion gives them a firmer pedal?(which is BS BTW) I'm thinking the same logic applies on the PowerMaster. The Wagon PM is bigger just to handle the increased fluid capacity or what ever you want to call it.

Hmmm? I wonder with a push rod and reservoir swap if the B-Wagon PM would be the hot set up if you are running the 1LE/LS1 brakes?
Click to expand...

thats another thing i will check when i get to this-------i'll check fluid volume displacemet because that would be a good reason for a change if the piston/caliper volumes were different.........RC
 
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