Whats the hot ECU/ignition setup?

[SPOT MY 6]

I sold my entire 109 combo years ago and basically have a rolling chassis with a S2. The car has no electronics (including wiring harness) so I want to build it all around the best ECU and ignition combo. Is FAST and BS3 still the top two now a days? I liked my old BS3 but it was a GEN1 and lacked several features. Things I'm looking for are:

- COP and/or distributor support (what are you S2 guys using between the two? or is there something cooler that I dont know about?)
- lots of datalogging (6 EGTs, fuel pressure, etc)
- traction control is a bonus
- support for 4L80E is a bonus
- multiple programs (like the XFI switch that allows you to flip between them, since I have 2 fuel systems)
- solid vendor support

Thanks in advance.

 

[kidglok]

you have a few options.

xfi with bob bailey's tr6 would be perfect for you. You can run coil near plug or wastespark with the tr6, xfi can support egts/fuel pressure and much more, also lockup control if the 4l80 has it

 

[SPOT MY 6]

Thanks. Has the buick crowd accepted the CNP setup on higher HP setups (mid 8s)? Are distributors still in the game or are they going away? There isn't much info on Bob's site about the TR6 (http://www.tr6.bailey-eng.com/), any idea where I can read more about it and all of it's features?

 

[kidglok]

the stock ignition has been 8's, there are people using a distributor, not sure if its more reliable than a good dis setup

read the instructions on bobs site, it has all the info

 

[SPOT MY 6]

Thanks, I just checked it out. Anyone else care to comment on distributor vs CNP?

 

[turbobitt]

Thanks, I just checked it out. Anyone else care to comment on distributor vs CNP?

I been 8's with a stock ignition. I plan on going faster and hope to be in or better than mid 8's this spring. I been waiting to make the jump to Cals version of CNP since it integrates with the XFI very well. I'm just to chicken yet to make the leap.

Maybe if he ever comes up this way to dyno some cars he can bring a set-up to try....

FWIW - using XFI with EGT and accelerometer expansion modules as well as the Fast Dash. Also using 7 of the 8 analog chanels available for data logging as well as wheel speed sensor and soon to be turbo speed sensor. Makes for a nice integrated data logging package.


Allan G.

 

[HighPSI]

Things I'm looking for are:

- COP and/or distributor support (what are you S2 guys using between the two? or is there something cooler that I dont know about?)
- lots of datalogging (6 EGTs, fuel pressure, etc)
- traction control is a bonus
- support for 4L80E is a bonus
- multiple programs (like the XFI switch that allows you to flip between them, since I have 2 fuel systems)
- solid vendor support

Thanks in advance.

Both the XFI and BS3 are great systems. The xfi can switch between ignition types, swap tunes with thumb wheel, etc.. About the only thing it can't do that you want is the 4L80 control.
I feel I could give you solid vendor support.

 

[YamikidR1]

I would second using Cal as your supporting vendor he is alllllways there when i need him!

 

[SPOT MY 6]

Both the XFI and BS3 are great systems. The xfi can switch between ignition types, swap tunes with thumb wheel, etc.. About the only thing it can't do that you want is the 4L80 control.
I feel I could give you solid vendor support.

Cal, what do you recommend for ignition these days?

 

[norbs]

I know what I will be using , a msd distributor with a buick gn cam sensor inside with a XFI , and a msd8 for track use, msd7 on the street.......this will be a sick amount of spark..

Spark Energy: 315-345 mJ per spark
Primary Voltage: 480 Volts
Secondary Voltage: 50,000 Volts Plus
Spark Series Duration: 20 degree Crankshaft Rotation
RPM Range: 15,000 RPM with 14.4 Volts
Voltage Required: 12-18 Volts, Negative Ground
Current Draw: 36 Amps at 12,000 RPM
Weight and Size 4.85 lbs.,8.25"L x 3.75"W x 5.75"H​

 

[HighPSI]

Cal, what do you recommend for ignition these days?

It depends on the combination. If we are talking about high hp applications, I usually recommend either my CNP setup or a distributor. If you watch the TSO class at BG this year, it will be pretty evenly split between ignition types. Both systems have enough spark to fire the highest hp Buicks. The biggest advantage with the distributor is it's very simple to install. Additionally, it costs a couple hundred dollars less (depending on which ignition box you buy), and works with odd fire cranks. The disadvantage to a distributor is it is "almost" impossible to install on cars with AC, and it requires a special drive/mount setup on engines with timing belts. The CNP will work with AC, belt drives, etc.. The disadvantage is, it costs a couple hundred dollars more. and is a little more complicated with the wiring. I think the CNP setup looks better. Both systems can be ran with the stock crank sensor and the CNP uses the stock cam sensor. Both are pretty much plug and play. Compared to the stock ignition, both systems offer an advantage when tuning individual cylinders and allow for the use of standard rev limiters, etc..

These are just MY opinions/observations.

 

[Mike E]

It depends on the combination. If we are talking about high hp applications, I usually recommend either my CNP setup or a distributor. If you watch the TSO class at BG this year, it will be pretty evenly split between ignition types. Both systems have enough spark to fire the highest hp Buicks. The biggest advantage with the distributor is it's very simple to install. Additionally, it costs a couple hundred dollars less (depending on which ignition box you buy), and works with odd fire cranks. The disadvantage to a distributor is it is "almost" impossible to install on cars with AC, and it requires a special drive/mount setup on engines with timing belts. The CNP will work with AC, belt drives, etc.. The disadvantage is, it costs a couple hundred dollars more. and is a little more complicated with the wiring. I think the CNP setup looks better. Both systems can be ran with the stock crank sensor and the CNP uses the stock cam sensor. Both are pretty much plug and play. Compared to the stock ignition, both systems offer an advantage when tuning individual cylinders and allow for the use of standard rev limiters, etc..

These are just MY opinions/observations.

How does the COP kit compare to a Power grid setup with the 7720/7730? Can you control timing vs. time with the COP? I'm pretty dumb when it comes to what the power grid stuff or XIM can do. Is there an upper limit on what the coils can handle hp wise?

I'm running a belt drive and I'll be putting an MSD cam sync kit on it with the magnet in the top gear. I can fab the distributor drive if needed, but I'm lookint at over $1500 for the power grid boxes, coil and distributor parts. I trust the reliability of the distributor, but my wallet tells me to look around.

 

[Bent6]

My green car went 7s with the factory stock Buick waste spark setup. It gets a bad wrap IMO but it does have its limitations. I later switched to a distributor with MSD7AL to get the benefit of a little more power and 2-step capability. One downside to the distributor is the fact that you still have consumables such as rotors to wear out as well as more wiring. I have Cal's XFI/XIM COP setup on my 109 car. I can say that my S2 engine will be converted to this setup when it goes back together. The added features such as 2 & 3 step are worth it in themselves and it's much more simple to wire and setup plus it just has that modern cool factor. HTH

 

[HighPSI]

How does the COP kit compare to a Power grid setup with the 7720/7730? Can you control timing vs. time with the COP? I'm pretty dumb when it comes to what the power grid stuff or XIM can do. Is there an upper limit on what the coils can handle hp wise?

The CNP setup is just for spark. Currently, it doesn't have any way to change the timing. That is normally done through your engine managment system (XFI, BS3, etc..).
I don't know the upper hp limit of the CNP setup. I am guessing around 250hp/cylinder.

 

[norbs]

My green car went 7s with the factory stock Buick waste spark setup. It gets a bad wrap IMO but it does have its limitations. I later switched to a distributor with MSD7AL to get the benefit of a little more power and 2-step capability. One downside to the distributor is the fact that you still have consumables such as rotors to wear out as well as more wiring. I have Cal's XFI/XIM COP setup on my 109 car. I can say that my S2 engine will be converted to this setup when it goes back together. The added features such as 2 & 3 step are worth it in themselves and it's much more simple to wire and setup plus it just has that modern cool factor. HTH

Running 7's how long did the coil pack/module last?

 

[turbobitt]

Running 7's how long did the coil pack/module last?

Why would it matter ?

But, I wounder if there can be too much power with a distributer. Lets say you have enough spark to jump across multiple gaps within the cap. Is there a crab cap available or will fit ? Phasing would be very important.

Allan G.

 

[norbs]

More cylinder pressure more resistance to spark, more load on electronic components shorter life, How much boost to run 7s? I was reading somewhere that since the v6's terminals are 60' degrees apart its not that big of an issue, compared to a v8

 

[Mike E]

Why would it matter ?

But, I wounder if there can be too much power with a distributer. Lets say you have enough spark to jump across multiple gaps within the cap. Is there a crab cap available or will fit ? Phasing would be very important.

Allan G.

Yes, there is a large diameter v6 cap that can be run with an msd cap adapt kit. Some of the guys with belt drive distributors use them. I'm not sure it would fit on a distributor stuck in a timing cover.

 

[turbobitt]

More cylinder pressure more resistance to spark, more load on electronic components shorter life, How much boost to run 7s? I was reading somewhere that since the v6's terminals are 60' degrees apart its not that big of an issue, compared to a v8

You once said that the stock ignition is internally limited to power consumption. Can't believe it would matter 7 seconds at a clip....

Allan G.

 

[norbs]

That is correct it is internally limited, however I'm not sure how close it runs to this limit on a car running 20 psi boost vs 35+ psi boost, without actually data logging the primary current.