What intercooler are you running and for what reasons have you made this selection?

[bison]

The oe,s use plastic tanks. Could this be an option?

Not really since tooling costs would cost more than most people's race cars are worth.


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[turbobitt]

The image of the proposed intercooler above looks similar to the unit in the link below which comes with cast aluminum tapered endtanks(you can get the tanks configured either way). Treadstone also offers cast endtanks seperately also if you wanted to use a particular core. The cast endtanks would be thick and durable for mounting.

http://www.treadstoneperformance.co...63&prodname=TRV259+Series+Intercooler++1300HP

Thanks for the link. I see something I'm interested in.
AG.

 

[Good2win22]

Been reading with with great interest... Followed the treadstone link and after looking at the picture of that intercooler, would it be that cost prohibitive to change the bottom tank the opposite direction? That would give the exact same taper to the tanks, vertical rows, and cast tanks to weld mounting tabs. It looks like exactly like what I've been interoperating from this thread... Am I wrong in that assessment?

 

[~JM~]

Like this?

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

This is just a first attempt at seeing what we can do. I was originally accounting for pipes on both side but since the lower tank will be below the bumper supports it will be possible to increase the core width about 3-4 inches. That gives an even larger flow increase to about 1500 cfm. For comparison we are estimating a large horizontal flow to be around 650 cfm.
We have another way out of the box idea that we will build for my own car. Don't really want to share that until we have some data but its a real exciting design.
AG.

Can a more direct path be found from the turbo to the intercooler? If these are intended for sub-10 second cars, then maybe a slight cut or modification can be made by the owner around his radiator. I understand if you maybe like to market this piece as a complete "bolt in". But I just can't get used to seeing that pipe do the loopty-loop. Besides, it will give you more rows of cooler if you can get that pipe out from behind the grill.

 

[turbobitt]

To me the gains would be minimal at best. To run a 3" pipe though the side or top of the core support would be to time consuming to make work. There are a lot of guys still not willing to take there cutting and hacking that far to make it work. It would also leave out those with A/C and trans coolers or whatever objects are in the way.


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[TTipe]

I purchased my RJC 315 XTF because of less than 1 psi drop across the core & tanks & ~ 25 deg F temp increase through the traps (per Jason). The front mount is also not cooking under the hood. Pressure drop & temperature reduction across the induction system makes wonderful things happen. Mass air / unit volume is what makes these cars fly. Also working in conjunction with proper exhaust manifold to backpressure ratios put kitties in the cage

 

[Good2win22]

Like this?


View attachment 269191

Yes! Maybe turn the inlet and outlet if needed but yes!

 

[achalmersman]

I purchased my RJC 315 XTF because of less than 1 psi drop across the core & tanks & ~ 25 deg F temp increase through the traps (per Jason). The front mount is also not cooking under the hood. Pressure drop & temperature reduction across the induction system makes wonderful things happen. Mass air / unit volume is what makes these cars fly. Also working in conjunction with proper exhaust manifold to backpressure ratios put kitties in the cage

Has anybody ever measured pressure drop across this core in a 10 second or faster car? According to this thread I would be surprised to see those results. I hope it's true because I have a brand new 315 I haven't installed yet. Thought I bought the cats meow and now I'm wondering. I'll never have an 8 second car so maybe it won't matter for me. It can't be worse than my stock neck stock IC.......can it? Lol

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[NY Twin Turbo]

To me the gains would be minimal at best. To run a 3" pipe though the side or top of the core support would be to time consuming to make work. There are a lot of guys still not willing to take there cutting and hacking that far to make it work. It would also leave out those with A/C and trans coolers or whatever objects are in the way.


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Maybe so. There might only be some small gain but it would look a little better too. Doesn't this count for something?
Remember, I basically have this intercooler already. Only bigger. I took the short cut though. In an effort to keep things aesthetically pleasing as well as functional I did a little cutting. It was very little actually. Unfortunately I lost the use of my high beam. I'm sure some members have cut a lot more out of there cars for a lot less.

I'm not that bright though. So, I figured you guys could work it out for the rest of the group. We can read a wristwatch from outer space. We built the pyrmids 7000 years ago. This should be easy.

How about an oval pipe? How about a pipe that comes out strait on 45* angle to the tank? How about a pipe that threads into the tank after the IC is installed?

 

[turbobitt]

Maybe so. There might only be some small gain but it would look a little better too. Doesn't this count for something?
Remember, I basically have this intercooler already. Only bigger. I took the short cut though. In an effort to keep things aesthetically pleasing as well as functional I did a little cutting. It was very little actually. Unfortunately I lost the use of my high beam. I'm sure some members have cut a lot more out of there cars for a lot less.

I'm not that bright though. So, I figured you guys could work it out for the rest of the group. We can read a wristwatch from outer space. We built the pyrmids 7000 years ago. This should be easy.

How about an oval pipe? How about a pipe that comes out strait on 45* angle to the tank? How about a pipe that threads into the tank after the IC is installed?

Joey,
I don't want to convey the wrong message. Not questioning your intelligence here. I saw your Intercooler and thought it was well designed and liked the layout of the pipes. But your pipes are also smaller than 3" if I remember correctly. The modifications you made and compromises you had to make reminded me of what I was not willing to do. You also have to consider when trying to design something you need to please the masses if you want to try a market the idea. This is why Bison and i are looking into this direction. We have a few other tricks up our sleeves and haven't chosen to disclose them yet since we really want to collect data. Basically we have an all out monster Intercooler that I'm plunging feet first into and we have a milder design meant to work for almost anybody willing to use a front mount. Who knows maybe we will fail or come up short from our own expectations but it won't stop us from trying.
AG


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[NY Twin Turbo]

Joey,
I don't want to convey the wrong message. Not questioning your intelligence here. I saw your Intercooler and thought it was well designed and liked the layout of the pipes. But your pipes are also smaller than 3" if I remember correctly. The modifications you made and compromises you had to make reminded me of what I was not willing to do. You also have to consider when trying to design something you need to please the masses if you want to try a market the idea. This is why Bison and i are looking into this direction. We have a few other tricks up our sleeves and haven't chosen to disclose them yet since we really want to collect data. Basically we have an all out monster Intercooler that I'm plunging feet first into and we have a milder design meant to work for almost anybody willing to use a front mount. Who knows maybe we will fail or come up short from our own expectations but it won't stop us from trying.
AG


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The problem with text is you can't tell if you offended someone or not. Of course you couldn't tell I was writing with a playful smile on my face! No, you did not offend me.

Anyway, Yes I used smaller pipes. Two and a half inch to be exact. But there's two of them. I mentioned earlier that I thought my intercooler was unmarketable to the masses. Even in a single turbo configuration. But, I know if you guys build a pretty piece it would help the sale. It obviously has to work as well as it looks. Just thought if you consider some slightly less economical options for design it may pay off if you sold more of them. Maybe even ask for a few more dollars per unit for the effort.

Still, I believe a little tasteful cutting/trimming is the worst thing a Buick owner could do.

 

[NY Twin Turbo]

Still, I believe a little tasteful cutting/trimming is the worst thing a Buick owner could do.

I meant "Is not" the worst thing a Buick owner could do

 

[turbobitt]

Touched up the computer model a little bit to represent the larges vertical flow tank we think we can easily fit with no modifications. This is a 1500 CFM core and should flow plenty without much pressure drop. I looked into the Treadstone tanks but wasn't really happy with the low profile of the tank and felt that the larger volume of a fabricated tank would be more beneficial to creating some expansion and slowing down the airflow. The inlet and outlet are angled so that there is a good possibility that the exiting boost piping could be used from another horizontal flow intercooler.
Bison and I were talking about this last night and based on what we see with our own stuff we think that by reducing the pressure drop 4 psi could yield about a 52 degree difference in hot boost temp. This is based on a 13 degree temp rise per psi of boost. If you look at the significance of this it is telling us that the intercooler could give up less efficiency as long as the pressure drop is significant enough.
AG.

 

[TURBOPOWERED68]

Reducing pressure drop by increasing IC volume thus slowing down the flow to give enough time to cool? larger tanks less core vs smaller tanks more core.
But not really caring too much about cooling because you are focused on ALKY injected cars?
Alky cars provide their own chemical cooling so cooling the charge is of secondary concern?
Devil's advocate here,, why not just shoot alky into the turbo (outlet) go into a 4 inch pipe down and U-bend back up into the Throttle body with another traditional placed alky injector and call it a day?? this will get rid of the core's psi drop and you still have the alky doing the heavy lifting without 50# of added weight in the front of the car. You will also address the "Too cold charge air" issue to atomize the alky in winter driving
So What am i missing here?

 

[turbobitt]

Reducing pressure drop by increasing IC volume thus slowing down the flow to give enough time to cool? larger tanks less core vs smaller tanks more core.
But not really caring too much about cooling because you are focused on ALKY injected cars?
Alky cars provide their own chemical cooling so cooling the charge is of secondary concern?
Devil's advocate here,, why not just shoot alky into the turbo (outlet) go into a 4 inch pipe down and U-bend back up into the Throttle body with another traditional placed alky injector and call it a day?? this will get rid of the core's psi drop and you still have the alky doing the heavy lifting without 50# of added weight in the front of the car. You will also address the "Too cold charge air" issue to atomize the alky in winter driving
So What am i missing here?

If I was running a pure Alky car I would run no intercooler at all. For those spraying alky the intercooler size becomes less important as long as its in the direction of pressure drop IMO. So question becomes what or who do you build for ?
AG.

 

[fastblackracing]

Touched up the computer model a little bit to represent the larges vertical flow tank we think we can easily fit with no modifications. This is a 1500 CFM core and should flow plenty without much pressure drop. I looked into the Treadstone tanks but wasn't really happy with the low profile of the tank and felt that the larger volume of a fabricated tank would be more beneficial to creating some expansion and slowing down the airflow. The inlet and outlet are angled so that there is a good possibility that the exiting boost piping could be used from another horizontal flow intercooler.
Bison and I were talking about this last night and based on what we see with our own stuff we think that by reducing the pressure drop 4 psi could yield about a 52 degree difference in hot boost temp. This is based on a 13 degree temp rise per psi of boost. If you look at the significance of this it is telling us that the intercooler could give up less efficiency as long as the pressure drop is significant enough.
AG.
View attachment 269256 View attachment 269257 View attachment 269258

Turbobitt, for inlet and outlet connection points we used iirc compressor housings off te45 turbos that we cut off everything except the inlet bell and the radius with the flat part that makes the turn against the comp wheel.

With the already machined radius for airflow and the flat part that was cut to size these made very nice low effort pipe connection-points.

Something to consuder for your proto types.

We ended up with somthing like this only nicer that was then trimmed up to fit the end tanks.

 

[ijames]

If a tank is a simple rectangular shape of 4"x4"x20", for example, the volume is 320 cubic inches or 320 in^3 * (1 ft/12 in)^3 = 0.185 cubic feet. If the flow rate is 1000 cfm, just to pick a number, then 0.185 ft^3 * (1 min/1000 ft^3) = 0.000185 min, * 60 sec/1 min = 0.011 seconds. I think that for reasonable tank dimensions and flow rates that won't change by more than about a factor of two, so my estimate is that the air will spend between 0.006 and 0.02 seconds in each tank. There won't be any significant heat transfer in the tanks in that short of a time, compared to the core, so I don't see any benefit in trying to slow down the air in the tanks and I don't think you can make much of a difference anyway. What is important is to avoid turbulence in the tanks, because that will cause unnecessary pressure drops and non-uniformity getting the air from tank to core passages, and the way to achieve that is to have the smallest change in cross section at the pipe-tank transition, and to have a smooth taper across the length of the tank, trying to keep the linear velocity constant as the flow volume drops as air gets lost to the core. In other words the cross sectional area of the tank should smoothly drop to zero about one core tube spacing past the last core tube, or whatever is convenient to construct that is near that. All the same considerations apply to both the inlet and outlet tank, just in reverse, so what is best for one is best for both.

If you are going to have a commercial sheet metal shop do the cutting and bending for the tanks, they will most likely use a cnc press brake and setting it up for four bends of 45 degrees to get the Procharger shape with taper instead of two bends of 90 degrees is a trivial change and will barely change the price. The easiest way would be to bend the pipe end tab first, then do the four long bends, and then weld in a short rectangular end cap if needed for the small end when you put the tank on the core instead of also bending that tab down. I could get a quote from where I used to work for you, just for comparison, but you would probably want to go with a local fab shop just for better communication and control. With the holiday I may not be able to get back to this until January, sorry.

 

[Jerryl]

Guys, don't take this the wrong way as my respect for your knowledge is unparalleled.

Although not a direct comparison in cost, it is my believe we can learn and draw parallel philosophy from the F1 teams on end tank volume and flow requirements.
The piping should not be emitted from volume consideration.


Like all of you, I would like to see this succeed so providing some feedback.

 

[Mike Licht]

We use 1010 aluminum for the tanks, when we used to use 6061 they would crack over time if the tank is long we use a bead roller to put a rib in it to stiffen it and sometimes we put internal braces insdied the tanks. We try to cut them from one piece and bend them if possible to minimize welds.