What are best cams

[turbofabricator]

I chose to run a roller cam because I have replaced more flat cams than I can count. As I said earlier, there are only a FEW cam grinders that REALLY know how to gring the tapers on a Buick cam. 5 lobes are tapered in one direction, and 7 are tapered in the opther direction. There is a REASON Buick has #3 cylinder lifter bore FARTHER apart. (by .100") They moved #3 exhaust lobe away from the hot oil comming off the thrust bearing. Move it if you want, but GM did it for a reason. I'm SURE that you have it figured out better than GM did. Even, the StageII's are that way. Biggest problem with the #3 lobe issues is that the taper on the lobe MUST be correct. Comp use to do it WRONG! Now they do it right. Lunati continues to grind it wrong. Reed does it good, as does Erson. Roll the dice. Use of a flat tappt cam works fine IF you install and break-in correctly, and use the right oil. A roller cam is better in EVERY aspect, but, it too must be installed correctly, with thrust clearance being VERY important to get right. Keep using your flat tappet cams. I choose not to. MY choice. If the additional $550 bucks is gonna kill you, then use a flat tappet, and be very careful with oils and break-in. How may flat tappet cams are in new cars? WHY would they use the very expensive cams if they didn't need to?
It sounds like you are the BEST engine builder there is. Keep up the great work, and positive customer service. I'll just keep using the over-priced roller cams and piss poor building proceedures that I have learned over the last three months of building engines. Might I suggest you visit the web pages of Speedtalk.com. Drop by there and tell the folks over there how dumb they are, too. I'm a student of horsepower, and definatley do NOT know it all. I learned soo much from reading this post. I have a couple of flat tappet cams laying in the shop somewhere that I should just re-lube and stab them into another engine. It would save me a WHOLE bunch of money!

 

[Super6]

roller cams

are the way to go with these engines. Everyone i know that builds or race these cars will not put a flat tappet cam in one of these engines. Why risk a wiped lobe to take out the main and rod bearing...$750 would be easy to spend then on machine work:redface: Never had a bigger flat tappet than stock in my car but i can tell you the roller in my car pulls like mad up top with the baby turbo. one other thing if your car doesn't start for the first time and you just put a flat tappet in you risk wiping a lobe with the roller no worries....just my opinion:smile: hth Bob

 

[VadersV6]

I have a couple of flat tappet cams laying in the shop somewhere that I should just re-lube and stab them into another engine. It would save me a WHOLE bunch of money!

Im sure he's got plenty of pre-pre broken in cams for you to use. Why waste those cams of yours when they could have the lobes welded back on and reground for a 9 second car with an engine that was machined before it was cleaned. I still havent heard the theory on lifters. Can you tell me what machining was done to the block before you slapped a "girdel" on it?
All jokes aside, yes, you can re-use a flat "taped" cam thats been run before, as long as you run new lifters and break it in right, but its not something I would do.
Reason people have issues with a Flat cam is they have no Business being in an eng anyway and should have let a shop to the work for them!
Im trying to understand this, but I think you meant that people who flatten lobes, have no business working on engines and that they should rely on a machine shop to build their engines for them. I dont see how a person can fit in an engine or why they would try to get in there in the first place.
Im sure you wouldnt walk up to someone at a buick meet, lurk around and yell "BULL****!" the first time you hear them say something you dont agree with.
At least here you will get a lecture instead of having a group of people jump you. Dont be so disrespectful, and be willing to have a discussion...not a screaming fit, telling experienced people how incompetent they are.

 

[turbo nasty]

Dont believe us...Just pick up the phone and call the big well known Turbo Buick Guys and see. Then lets us know.

I am serious about this....Call around. Hartline, Cottons, Nick Micale, Lou Czarnata (spelling??), Wildcat Perfomance, etc. Call em and ask them why the only use roller cams now.


Despite what is put in what I am saying in the turb Bufords go Roller ...NOW a days

 

[GNVYUS 1]

One of the few problems follow GNers faced that I didn't ( not sure how with my car luck ) was the flat tappet cam.
I used the ESP 206/214 and it lasted longer than the crank bearings.
Got about 15k out of it with no issues, others have also had great success with this cam so I would recommend it. ( I think other vendors sell the same cam but with a different name )

Newest motor has the 210/215 roller due to all of the possible issues now a days with the flat tappets, and I wanted a performance increase with the ported heads. $750 is a wise investment IMO when compared to another rebuild and all the time spent dealing with the car down again.

I don't see how the roller cam only gives you 2-4hp, the roller rocker upgrade alone does that.

 

[8AV8]

Plus I think vendors just want you to spend Huge $$$ on things because they make more $$$ Sad really sad

Dont get me wrong not knocking anyone here, I have delt with many vendors and all have been great! and there are many new products that work great and are way better than factory parts.

Me personally I will put the $$$ I could spend on a roller cam set up and make my Block stronger (IE Better rods, cranck, Girdle Pistons, and Heads) so I can make more HP And put you on the trailer!




How much money do you think a vendor makes an a roller cam? Do you think it might......just maybe......be the same percentage of mark up thats on a flat tappet???

If you are building a Buick V6 with upgraded rods , crank , girdle , pistons , and heads .....and are worried about the $400-500 difference between roller and flat tappet, you might need to reconsider your goals.

Are you saying you upgraded all the above mentioned parts and the machine work and other stuff to make it all work....new hardware.etc for 4800?

How many passes has it made? Times?

 

[Louie L.]

There is a lot of misinformation in this post.

A roller is the way to go.... If anyone wants a flat tappet well obviously Thunderrace 31 is the master at installing them.

 

[EightSecV6]

i Rebuilting my motor so i want so cams but i do not now which one i should get?

In this day and age along with the affordable cost, it is foolish in my opinion to use a flat tappet cam instead of a hydraulic roller, even on a near stock build.

 

[XXQUICK6XX]

Roller cam

I agree with Louie on the point is to read around and made your decision. The main issue I see is the oils out there are cutting out additives that will shorten the life of your flat tappet cam period. Do a little research on it and you'll be suprised. I'd go roller if a cam change or a rebuild was in line.

And you too Bill. ; )

Steve

 

[87buickracer]

best cam

Back in the 1970's we ran flat tappet cams in our 69 camaro and ss chevelle forever with no problem.both engines ran 396's bored .030 over to 402.but for these darn buick motors,if you can afford it go roller.You will get better performance and piece of mind.
I build my own engines and transmissions and when I can afford it I go roller.

 

[decarlo sloan]

cam

does getting cam cryoed help it not going flat. just wondering?

 

[SouthernCal GN]

There is a lot of misinformation in this post.

A roller is the way to go.... If anyone wants a flat tappet well obviously Thunderrace 31 is the master at installing them.

In this day and age along with the affordable cost, it is foolish in my opinion to use a flat tappet cam instead of a hydraulic roller, even on a near stock build.

does getting cam cryoed help it not going flat. just wondering?

Not trying to be a prick, sloan, but you might want to re-read the above quoted posts- a couple of the guys who have real experience, and not just opinion, about this fickle ltiile engine.

FWIW, I went with an Anderson 214/214 roller, cause it just didn't make sense to do it right the first time. I use simple math:

Roller cam kit- about $750 +/-

vs:
Flat tappet kit- about $130 +/-
Cryo treatment- $150 (i'm guessing)
EOS- $100/case

Real world difference-$370. If you wipe a lobe, then add about $1k for the rebuild.

$370 is cheap for peace of mind. And, it pulls like mad!!

 

[gczarny]

This is great info! Thanks for it!
Also Flat tap cams are way cheaper and a roller will only net you like 2-4 hp over it so is $750 worth that little bit????
I think not! But hay thats just me

I am sorry to say that....but ...is "thunderace31" smoking something new ! please don't get upset TOO MUCH but....after I lost two motors to NEW flat tap cams broken in properly !!! (both comp camps by the way ) ...I have to agree with the rest of BUICK guys , with todays oils and "junk flat tap cams " I would NEVER go with anything else then ROLLER CAM , and the $750 or so price tag is NOTHING when you have to rebuild the motor after you loose the cam , sorry thunderace31 but you are wrong , maybe it works on SBC but BUICK flat tap cams today just SUCK !!! , the BEST BUICK UPGRADES
FOR THE MONEY !!! ROLLER CAM AND ALKY KIT !!!

 

[turbolc2]

Roller vs Flat Tappet

One small detail may have been overlooked in this thread.The valve seats in our iron heads are soft.They are cast iron which was not induction hardened.When our "irons" are ported the flow numbers which can be achieved are dependent on the shape of the valve seats.A typical flat tappet cam in our engines needs a valve spring exerting seat pressure of about 85psi.A roller has to run in the 120-130 psi "on the seat range" to have enough pressure to prevent lifter bounce.I would expect premature seat pound out due to the higher forces which must be used to follow a roller cam.The seat pound out then begins to reduce the airflow over the valve seat because the seat contour has been changed by the early valve pound out.I don't have any idea how fast this happens.There may be no value added with this idea if we are rebuilding engines every 10k miles.The simple equation " F=MA " has a lot to do with this.I think the combination of higher spring rates (greater than 100 psi on the seat) in conjunction with the lack of zinc & phosphorous used along with the flat tappet cams are wiping cams.I will still run my stock cam (along with Amsoil & EOS) until its time to rebuild.This may only apply to those who have iron heads.

 

[Lturbo6]

Not to jump off the subject by here's a quick question. My engine is getting some champion heads, would it be best to put a flat cam or roller cam in? Reasons being can I put a roller cam in without roller rocker and the rest of the solid upgrade? I want to upgrade in the future or now to roller cam but don't if I can put it in by inside or do I need the whole kit. Thanks alot fellows!

 

[8AV8]

Go roller if you can afford it. You dont have to have roller rockers and you don't have to go solid. I have a hyd. roller, better for a street driven car than solid.

 

[VadersV6]

Not to jump off the subject by here's a quick question. My engine is getting some champion heads, would it be best to put a flat cam or roller cam in? Reasons being can I put a roller cam in without roller rocker and the rest of the solid upgrade? I want to upgrade in the future or now to roller cam but don't if I can put it in by inside or do I need the whole kit. Thanks alot fellows!

Get the roller cam if you can afford it, wait a month or whatever to save up, AND get roller rockers. I would never run stock rockers. And what are you saying about the "solid" upgrade? Are you saying its a good reliable upgrade, or you want to go with a solid cam vs hydraulic?
If it were me, I would get a 210ish duration @ .050" roller and roller rockers. Going too high on the duration with ported heads will move your powerband higher than you probably want to.
Another important thing to remember, is that your spring rates MUST be right if you go roller. The springs that are on the Champions are likely no good for a roller cam. The lobes ramp up so aggressively that you need enough spring pressure to keep the spring assembly stable. The valve stem will actually bounce sideways, putting alot of side load on the stem and the guide. The guide will wear out really quick if oiling sucks or you dont have enough spring pressure. Those teflon "PC" style seals that Champion uses suck bad. They should never be used on street motors. They were the hot **** back in the 80's and 90's, but after machining and rebuilding about 10,000 sets of heads, I rarely saw a healthy valve guide after a racing season, on heads equipped with those seals. The guides would be wiped, the stems wiped, the seats not sealing right, and of course the seals would be shot. I also saw ALOT of siezed valves...and the pistons didnt appreciate that. Teflon doesnt belong in engines. Teflon "cold flows". It gradually forms to whatever shape is being pushed against it. Combined with bronze guides, its a recipe for disaster. First, those seals dont allow nearly enough oil to bleed into the guide. Also, no oil can squeeze back out of the guide. A way too thin layer of oil gets in there, and since it cant pump in and out, the oil burns and the carbon jacks up everything. The bronze expands alot more than anything else, and the clearance is taken up. The stems and guides get really really hot from a lack of lubrication. Things wear out, sieze, etc. The valve starts rocking back and forth in the worn out guide. The seal deforms to an oval shape, which doesnt seal at all. Now the oil is pouring in. It goes from a total lack of oiling, to an oil consumption problem.
Can you tell I dont like those seals? Anyway, with those aggressive ramping rates of the roller cam, it also closes the valve really fast, and slams the valve against the seat. The valve can actually bounce at this point, if you dont have enough spring pressure.

 

[Lturbo6]

I was wondering can you run the roller can without roller rocker arm. Or do I need them both at the same time. In a nutshell can these items be pieced together.

 

[SouthernCal GN]

Yes- you can run the roller cam without the the roller rockers.

 

[PowerKraus]

Yes, I peiced mine together andsaved a bundle. you'll need the roller cam...get the good kind, not that hardened 'ductile (sp?) opinions differ, but don;t skimp), small block chevy roller lifters (think 853? or 8630), check this part numner), front cover cam bumber, new pushrods (smith brothers were cheap and quick), and then if I recall maybe some block work at the back-end to align the cam. No mind you, this is from memory(10 years ago). Some, like full throttle will help...reason i plug them is they have been very good to work with over the phone (I VALUE CUSTOMER SERVICE). I kept my stok rockers....it takes a lttlie work, but it was welll worth it. Just FYI, I went 224/224 on stock..and I mean stock, block....and never looked back. Rock solid set-up, and I have not problem buzing her to 6000 rpm.

I am sure others with more current exprience will help you out!

Enjoy!