Weird Brakes NEED HELP!

[King Monza]

So i am cruising down to LA on I-5 South from northern CA (8hr drive, 6hrs in the old Regal ) and I notice my brakes were acting funny. Sometimes when i push the brake pedal down it feels like the brakes are manual w/ no power assist. It becomes very hard to stop, but then the power brakes seem to just click on after a second and stop the car suddenly. Its kind of a scary feeling. Any ideas on what specifically i can replace to correct this? I added some brake fluid and bled the brakes, which did seem to help a little, but it still stops hard off and on. The problem is intermittent, but when it does happen its not a fun ride. Any ideas??? Please help!!

 

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

Hydroboost Conversion

The Electric Motor Pump On The Powermaster Brake Booster Is Going Bad.the Motor Provides The Pressure For The Booster To Boost Brake Line Pressure It Will Start Popping Fuses Next. The Motor Wears Out, And Can Fill With Brake Fluid, Shorting The Windings, Or The Vanes Are Worn Enough Not To Generate The High Pressure Needed For The Accumulator Ball. Parts Are Hard To Get, And I Recommend The Hydroboost Conversion. It Runs Off Of The Power Steering Pump Hoses, And Is Not Relying On Vacuum, Or Electrical Power. You Can Read Most Of The Other Posts On The Same Subject.

 

[King Monza]

thanx for the words, but i am a poor college student who makes $150 a week... Any one with some advice not selling anything?

 

[zeus87gn]

Guessing you have the PowerMaster (you didn't say for sure) it sounds right off like your acc (accumulator) is dying. Your symptoms are typical...i've had them myself. It may be the pump like ol Bob says, but you won't know for sure unless you run some diagnostics.

Look here: Brake System

Pay most attention to the accumulator and leakdown tests. If the acc doesn't pump up within the correct time let me know what the time was. You will most likely find that the acc is taking too long to pump up. They are the most common failure part on the P/M system.

Now don't have a stroke my poor broke college friend, I know how you feel. If your acc is bad, you are looking at about $200 to replace it. You should only replace it with a new one. Used acc's are a big gamble and you don't want to gamble on your brakes. The P/M is one of the many quirks of owning a Turbo Regal. See my sig for some tips on P/M maintanence.

HTH, let me know how things time out.
You may email me directly if you like.
Z

PS - Don't mind ol Bob, he's just trying to unload all those P/M motors he's invested a bunch of money in. His Hydroboost is a good system, but if all that is bad is your acc you can fix your P/M for less than replacing it.

 

[King Monza]

Thanx for the info! Much appreciated!!

 

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

Hydroboost Conversion

I Just Give You The Menu, You Choose. We Have Done The Vacuum Conversions, Done The Vac With A Vacuum Pump, We Have Done The Powermaster Rebuilds. But, They Are Never Really Happy With The Results. We Have To Face These Guys At The Car Shows And Races. I'm Gonna Hear About It, If It Doesn't Work. The Hydroboost Is Just Reliable, And It Will Deliver All The Pressure You Could Want. Enough To Expand The Caliper Housing. The Ladies Can Drive? (stop) Big Horsepower Cars, Like A New Car, With It. No 12 Volts, No Vacuum Pump. No Wiring. Nobody Here Ever Talked About The Hydroboost, Until I Brought It Up. There Were So Many People Wanting To Save Their Powermasters, That, I Found The Motor Pumps, New. We Even Have The Vacuum Booster Conversions, If You Want. You Can Choose Anything You Want. I'm Here To Help You Understand How The Different Systems Work. We Have Been Installing Those Dual Diaphragms (like The Std Regal) On All Types Of Cars For 30 Years. Cars Such As Tri-5 Chevs, Camaro, Chevelle, Cads, Olds, Pontiacs, Jeeps, Etc. They Work Fantastic. We Chrome Them , Powder Coat Them, Etc. But Those Cars Are Not Turbocharged. That Is The Difference I Am Referring To Here. They Are Not 231 C.i. Motors. They Are Big V-8's That Can Pull Huge Volumes Of Air With Every Revolution Of The Crank. We All Want To Drive Cars That Only Cost A Few Dollars To Fix, And Then Brag That The Car Is Worth $20k, $50k, Or A $100,000. Reality Is, Cars Must Be Safe. Oddly Enough, I See The Guys List All The Money In Parts That They Added To Their Car To Make It Go, But Brakes? No, Except Mr. Dreamcar. Big Fuel Pumps, Thousands In Tires And Wheels, Thousands In The Turbo, Ign, Trans, Paint, Etc. No Problem Spending For That. Brakes? Who Needs 'em? The Guys Who Have Experienced Brake Failures Do. They Build The Brake System, First. So, I Just Ask These Questions. I Love Speed, I Built A 60 Vette Fuel Injection For My Own Car In 1968. I Built 409's. Z11's, Cross Ram 409's, Blown 482 409's (feb 82 Super Chevy) Dozens Of 427's And 454's. Recently, A 67 Gto With A 400, Isky Cam, Etc. There Is A Hydroboost On The Gto. Yes, I Love Speed. But I Have Experienced Brake Failures When Customers Bring In Their Trucks And Other Vehicles To Have Me Test Drive. Oooooh-boy! Hair Raising. Picture Coming Down An Off Ramp At 70, Cars Stacked Up At The Bottom Of The Ramp, And Your Brakes Don't Work....

 

[King Monza]

I Just Give You The Menu, You Choose. We Have Done The Vacuum Conversions, Done The Vac With A Vacuum Pump, We Have Done The Powermaster Rebuilds. But, They Are Never Really Happy With The Results. We Have To Face These Guys At The Car Shows And Races. I'm Gonna Hear About It, If It Doesn't Work. The Hydroboost Is Just Reliable, And It Will Deliver All The Pressure You Could Want. Enough To Expand The Caliper Housing. The Ladies Can Drive? (stop) Big Horsepower Cars, Like A New Car, With It. No 12 Volts, No Vacuum Pump. No Wiring. Nobody Here Ever Talked About The Hydroboost, Until I Brought It Up. There Were So Many People Wanting To Save Their Powermasters, That, I Found The Motor Pumps, New. We Even Have The Vacuum Booster Conversions, If You Want. You Can Choose Anything You Want. I'm Here To Help You Understand How The Different Systems Work. We Have Been Installing Those Dual Diaphragms (like The Std Regal) On All Types Of Cars For 30 Years. Cars Such As Tri-5 Chevs, Camaro, Chevelle, Cads, Olds, Pontiacs, Jeeps, Etc. They Work Fantastic. We Chrome Them , Powder Coat Them, Etc. But Those Cars Are Not Turbocharged. That Is The Difference I Am Referring To Here. They Are Not 231 C.i. Motors. They Are Big V-8's That Can Pull Huge Volumes Of Air With Every Revolution Of The Crank. We All Want To Drive Cars That Only Cost A Few Dollars To Fix, And Then Brag That The Car Is Worth $20k, $50k, Or A $100,000. Reality Is, Cars Must Be Safe. Oddly Enough, I See The Guys List All The Money In Parts That They Added To Their Car To Make It Go, But Brakes? No, Except Mr. Dreamcar. Big Fuel Pumps, Thousands In Tires And Wheels, Thousands In The Turbo, Ign, Trans, Paint, Etc. No Problem Spending For That. Brakes? Who Needs 'em? The Guys Who Have Experienced Brake Failures Do. They Build The Brake System, First. So, I Just Ask These Questions. I Love Speed, I Built A 60 Vette Fuel Injection For My Own Car In 1968. I Built 409's. Z11's, Cross Ram 409's, Blown 482 409's (feb 82 Super Chevy) Dozens Of 427's And 454's. Recently, A 67 Gto With A 400, Isky Cam, Etc. There Is A Hydroboost On The Gto. Yes, I Love Speed. But I Have Experienced Brake Failures When Customers Bring In Their Trucks And Other Vehicles To Have Me Test Drive. Oooooh-boy! Hair Raising. Picture Coming Down An Off Ramp At 70, Cars Stacked Up At The Bottom Of The Ramp, And Your Brakes Don't Work....

Ok. You're information is appreciated, but i am looking on a forum to avoid spending an excess amount. From what i see, an acc is a good for 5 years. Which is fine b/c I should be just about out of med school then. after that, I will buy a nice new brake system, etc. Hell, I will even go through you for all of your free information. However, i am currently broke and obviously looking on the internet for the best deal! Thats why i specifically asked for "what part should i specifically replace."

And i have a race car. And since its a race car, it has manual brakes. I love speed too! Thats why i drive my pump gas 10 second car everywhere. But thats a different story. This is about my brakes for my daily driver, therefore, nothing extreme is really needed.

But again, thanx for all of your free information.

 

[zeus87gn]

From what i see, an acc is a good for 5 years. Which is fine b/c I should be just about out of med school then. after that, I will buy a nice new brake system, etc. Hell, I will even go through you for all of your free information. However, i am currently broke and obviously looking on the internet for the best deal! Thats why i specifically asked for "what part should i specifically replace."

My acc has been functioning for over 7 yrs. No problems. I flush/change the fluid every 1 or 2 years. I may be the exception, but it's still going. I swear the good fluid is the lifeblood of the PowerMaster.

Once you finish medical school you can afford the Hydroboost that Bob sells, that i can't afford yet!


Please note, you need to run those diagnostics and time you system before you begin throwing parts at it. It doesn't cost anything to do and it will verify my educated guess before you spend your money.

Good Luck!!

 

[zeus87gn]

We All Want To Drive Cars That Only Cost A Few Dollars To Fix, And Then Brag That The Car Is Worth $20k, $50k, Or A $100,000. Reality Is, Cars Must Be Safe. Oddly Enough, I See The Guys List All The Money In Parts That They Added To Their Car To Make It Go, But Brakes? No, Except Mr. Dreamcar. Big Fuel Pumps, Thousands In Tires And Wheels, Thousands In The Turbo, Ign, Trans, Paint, Etc. No Problem Spending For That. Brakes? Who Needs 'em? ....

I have seen this too many times myself. It makes me cringe.
And I agree with you completely. Brakes need to be right up there at the top of the list right behind that multi thousand dollar motor. And they won't cost no where near as much to build.

 

[DavzGN]

First thing, I would try is changing out the fluid to a Synthetic DOT3 rated fluid. I started getting the occasional flicker of the dash brake light(usually the sign of a bad Accumulator) at least 7 years ago and changed the fluid. I am still running that accumulator without problems. I'm only on my second accumulator on my 87GN.

HTH
David

Note to BOB - I gave up trying to read your posts with the first letter of every word capitalized. It hurts my head trying to read it.

 

[zeus87gn]

First thing, I would try is changing out the fluid to a Synthetic DOT3 rated fluid. I started getting the occasional flicker of the dash brake light(usually the sign of a bad Accumulator) at least 7 years ago and changed the fluid. I am still running that accumulator without problems. I'm only on my second accumulator on my 87GN.

HTH
David

Excellent point. But if you are going to synthetic, go ahead and use the DOT4. It has the higher boiling point. It's also less prone to moisture absorbtion.

I use it. 0 problems with compatibility.
Usually ends up working better after the second fluid change/flush.

 

[2badgn]

Zeus,
How much does that Hydroboost system cost? It runs off the power steering pump, right?

Sometimes I get confused with the brake system that the earlier Turbo cars had (84-85) Hydraboost- I think and the Hydroboost system.

Are they the same system design?

Zeus I though that u really liked the design of the Powermaster. My GN has about 47,000 miles and the Powermaster system was changed once (about 7 years ago by a local Turbo shop when I did not know about these Powermasters) and I recently changed my accumulator and brake fluid.

I have no brake light issues now and the fluid is nice and clean!
Although the pedal seems a little squeemish- compared to my newer car- I tested the GN Powermaster on local roads with nobody around and it stopped pretty darn well.

As always thanks for your input and help
Frank

 

[zeus87gn]

Zeus,
How much does that Hydroboost system cost?

I will let Bob answer that one for specifics, but it's well more than the cost of a fresh rebuilt P/M with a lifetime warranty.

It runs off the power steering pump, right?

Correct. If your motor is running, and you serpentine belit is spinning the pump, you have power brakes.

Sometimes I get confused with the brake system that the earlier Turbo cars had (84-85) Hydraboost- I think and the Hydroboost system. Are they the same system design?

Yes. If I understand correctly, those years (non intercooled) had hydroboost.
And some 90's GM Astro vans.

Zeus I though that u really liked the design of the Powermaster. My GN has about 47,000 miles and the Powermaster system was changed once (about 7 years ago by a local Turbo shop when I did not know about these Powermasters) and I recently changed my accumulator and brake fluid.

I have no brake light issues now and the fluid is nice and clean!
Although the pedal seems a little squeemish- compared to my newer car- I tested the GN Powermaster on local roads with nobody around and it stopped pretty darn well.

As always thanks for your input and help
Frank

Yes, I believe the PowerMaster to be highly superior to vaccum for any vehicle that you would want to adapt it to. It operates around 600-700psi and has that much braking pressure the instant you place your foot on the pedal. You have to build the pressure in a vacuum system starting at 0psi.

I have driven many vehicles over the course of time and never seen a vacuum system give the instant reaction you get from a properly operating/serviced P/M. Never.

Hydroboost is my second choice....no vacuum/boost concerns. If the P/M ever becomes too expensive to maintain, or I just flat out can't get parts anymore I will convert to Hydroboost (and probably call Bob when I do as he has the kit ready to go).

If you pedal seems squishy, you may not have bled it properly.
See my sig for proper procedures.
There can be NO AIR PRESENT in the P/M in order for it to work as designed.

 

[King Monza]

My acc has been functioning for over 7 yrs. No problems. I flush/change the fluid every 1 or 2 years. I may be the exception, but it's still going. I swear the good fluid is the lifeblood of the PowerMaster.

Once you finish medical school you can afford the Hydroboost that Bob sells, that i can't afford yet!


Please note, you need to run those diagnostics and time you system before you begin throwing parts at it. It doesn't cost anything to do and it will verify my educated guess before you spend your money.

Good Luck!!

as unbelievable as this is going to sound... i have the ORIGINAL acc on the car after 98000 miles! the car was a commuter in its first 5-8 years of its life and then sat in a garage and was occasionally driven on weekends. definitely had some great luck with it so far! btw, thanx for the advice!

 

[zeus87gn]

as unbelievable as this is going to sound... i have the ORIGINAL acc on the car after 98000 miles! the car was a commuter in its first 5-8 years of its life and then sat in a garage and was occasionally driven on weekends. definitely had some great luck with it so far! btw, thanx for the advice!

You're welcome for the advice. Glad to konw you have had good luck with it so far.
But no, I don't believe you have the "original" accumulator.

The "original" accumulators were recalled early in the life of the intercooled TR's. They were replaced by the stealerships with the popular one that has the yellow paint and the removal nut on the outer side of the ball. The "original' ones supposedly look like the new units that Kirbans sells now with the removal nut and the yellow paint on the inner side of the ball.

Even regardless of acc, with that many miles and having not been changed on so long, you can't complain with it's length of service.

Now if you actually do have the "original" one, your local GM stealership owes you a new one.
Money problem solved!! :biggrin:

 

[King Monza]

You're welcome for the advice. Glad to konw you have had good luck with it so far.
But no, I don't believe you have the "original" accumulator.

The "original" accumulators were recalled early in the life of the intercooled TR's. They were replaced by the stealerships with the popular one that has the yellow paint and the removal nut on the outer side of the ball. The "original' ones supposedly look like the new units that Kirbans sells now with the removal nut and the yellow paint on the inner side of the ball.

Even regardless of acc, with that many miles and having not been changed on so long, you can't complain with it's length of service.

Now if you actually do have the "original" one, your local GM stealership owes you a new one.
Money problem solved!! :biggrin:

I know its hard to believe, but i have been to a couple of TR shops and the first thing that they always say is "Holy ****! Thats the original accumulator ball!" I will snap a pic for you before i change it.

 

[zeus87gn]

I know its hard to believe, but i have been to a couple of TR shops and the first thing that they always say is "Holy ****! Thats the original accumulator ball!" I will snap a pic for you before i change it.

I gotta see that.

 

[King Monza]

:biggrin:

 

[zeus87gn]

Ok, you have just won the title for ...
"The oldest functioning accumulator ball in existance!"



...but don't let it go to your head.

How bout those diagnostics?

 

[King Monza]

Ok, you have just won the title for ...
"The oldest functioning accumulator ball in existance!"



...but don't let it go to your head.

How bout those diagnostics?

hah, i went to GM first to see if i could get a free one since the recall was never done on my car... they had a good laugh... and then said 'no.' So i met up with a friend who told me he had an old one laying around somewhere that i could try. Sure enough, it worked the first try. Thanx for all of your help during this crisis!