TurboDave/Bison/VadersV6/RUQWKNF and Pacecarta almost got me KILLED!

[MyBoosta]

First, let me thank TurboDave, Bison, VadersV6, RUQWKNF and Pacecarta…you guys helped realize that I was not crazy and that one cannot always follow conventional wisdom when it comes to tuning these GN’s. I started my GN life with a simple original 26,450 miles almost 100% stock example, and after a short 3.5 months of reading and asking the tough questions, I now find myself having to live with a car that can only be driven on very dry pavements…that’s a good thing

Well, 598 miles later (27, 048) my GN feels like a totally different car. Tuning was the key and you guys input played a very important role in getting me there. Through your responses to my one of my other threads, you guys further reinforced to me that NOT all GN’s are created equal. Many members here seem to believe that you must strive to hit some magical number on the Scanmaster or with the Direct Scan or else you will blow up. I was going against conventional wisdom, and by doing so, I was noticing that my car was getting faster and with out the so called “magical” O2 readings or fuel press number. When reported it here on the forum, I was getting mini-chewed for it. However, you five guys stepped in and gave me your inputs that not only gave me a boost in confidence, but it also helped me to further appreciate this mill. THANK YOU!

Now, I can’t even drive from stop light to stop light w/o having to ease on the throttle otherwise, the back end of the car tries to come around to the front in a blink of an eye. Adding a: TE-44, THDP, 2.5 Hooker Duals, Fuel Press reg, TT chip, Homemade CAI, Scanmaster, Walboro 340 w/hotwire, 50lbs inj and TUNING has turned this into a beast.

Last night was my very first time with 117oct leaded on-board; I took you guys inputs: 24 to 25psi of Boost, timing at 25* to 26* in all gears and adjust fuel press as necessary. Well, after adjusting the parameters in the TT chip to achieve your suggestions, on my very first test around the block I almost killed my self. The car darn near went into a ditch; I was NOT prepared for such a fast spool up. The O2 readings registered at 804 to 777 low AND 769 to 738 high. Initially I was seeing 722 in 3rd with the fuel press at 48psi vac-off, so I bumped it up to 52psi vac-off for safety and the car responded with the 738 O2 readings in most of 3rd. Boost was steady at 24psi, I know that I can bump it to 25 or even 27psi but I think this gives me a little bit of wiggle room…no need to get greedy.:smile:

What do you guys think? And thanks again for all your help. Oh yeah, I kept getting false knock at lower R’s when the tired blaze up in 1st and 2nd…I think my DP is hitting frame from the torque…I don’t have a torque strap!

Thanks:biggrin:

 

[Black Power]

glad to hear it, I am getting anxious to install my cpt61

Get a torque strap!

 

[RUQWKNF]

Glad you're ok.
From what you said, you have now gotten your first taste of some serious torque with that tune. (should be close to 500ish) Definitely get a torque strap to keep the downpipe from hitting the frame. I guess we forgot to mention with that tune, that regular tires might cause you to test your off road rally racing skills. Gotta get some real drag radials on it, if you want to keep from Dukes of Hazarding the car with that kind of timing and boost. What size and type of tire were you running last night?
Be careful out there and glad to hear the car is responding so well for you. Sounds like a very strong running and combo. Low mileage on the motor helps a lot. There have been others who have gone really really fast with basically stock motors and bolts ons. So fast that others have doubted their results for years. One of the biggest secrets to this type of success is low mileage on the motor and head gaskets that have pretty much welded the heads to the block, due to age and lack of abuse. But shhhh, don't tell anyone, or the next thing you know, we'll have a bunch of low mileage GNX owners out there running 10's.

Congrats, you have now been infected with GFI or Gofastitis.
Welcome to the club.

Patrick

 

[BlackMetal]

Reminds me of myself, I'm scared of my own gas pedal now that I have the alky kit installed.

Glad to hear things are going good for your car. And it certainly does seem that there are certain situations where a common opinion about tuning/mods may just not work on a certain GN. If anybody gave you a hard time about it I'm sure they were just trying to tell you what they THOUGHT was right and they didn't want you to hurt your car. Aiming for certain 02 millivolts and fuel pressure is just a way of making sure everything is safe so you won't see a lovely two digit number pop up as knock retard on the scan master.

 

[TurboDave]

Glad to hear you're still in one piece... :wink:
Sounds like things are working well. Although your chip selection is different than I prefer, you still have a good one that is working great!
"Keep on keepin on"!!

 

[pacecarta]

again you have a tt chip that is adjustable
unless you are on small injectors that are maxing out increasing fuel pressure above 43psi static(or whatever your car needs to maintain ~128 idleBLM) is not needed and could lead to an early death of your motor ,

heres why

your FP is set static (vac line off) at 43 , you run 24 psi boost which will increase FP 1:1 , net pressure at line 67psi, everything will be ok


now what youve done is bump static to 52 and ran 24psi , net FP 76 at the rail , at the pump will be even higher and the walbro pump is not designed to run athese pressure and may even drop off at the top end of the track , also higher pressure will lead to less fuel flow ,with your injectors leave the FP at 43static and youll have some room to run that higher boost
if you need to add fuel do so in the chip , if you find that your chip needs a certain amount of WOT fuel setting when you run and you dont want to always make the changes the additional fuel and timing so you dont have to worry about the settings defaulting leaving you willout enough fuel
the tt is adjustable and i use just one chip and look at all my settings before i run on DS but if you arent sure they are still where you left them then it might be better to have a second race chip burned for the track.


also bumping the fuel pressure and running for any length of time at less than wot will lead to cylinder washdown (low blm)

its always better to start rich (high O2# on SM) and work down and tune for highest MPH no knock

 

[MyBoosta]

Thanks guys.

Weather permitting, tomorrow I will make my way to the track and test her out with some real shoes and NOT with my originals 215-65-15 GY tires.

I can't find a torque strap between now and tomorrow, but I'll bet that you guys have some ideas as to how to make my own one by visiting the Hardware store...right?

So, you guys are not to worry about my 738 O2 readings at 24psi boost with 52psi stactic fuel press?

Thanks

 

[MyBoosta]

again you have a tt chip that is adjustable
unless you are on small injectors that are maxing out increasing fuel pressure above 43psi static(or whatever your car needs to maintain ~128 idleBLM) is not needed and could lead to an early death of your motor ,

heres why

your FP is set static (vac line off) at 43 , you run 24 psi boost which will increase FP 1:1 , net pressure at line 67psi, everything will be ok


now what youve done is bump static to 52 and ran 24psi , net FP 76 at the rail , at the pump will be even higher and the walbro pump is not designed to run athese pressure and may even drop off at the top end of the track , also higher pressure will lead to less fuel flow ,with your injectors leave the FP at 43static and youll have some room to run that higher boost
if you need to add fuel do so in the chip , if you find that your chip needs a certain amount of WOT fuel setting when you run and you dont want to always make the changes the additional fuel and timing so you dont have to worry about the settings defaulting leaving you willout enough fuel
the tt is adjustable and i use just one chip and look at all my settings before i run on DS but if you arent sure they are still where you left them then it might be better to have a second race chip burned for the track.


also bumping the fuel pressure and running for any length of time at less than wot will lead to cylinder washdown (low blm)

its always better to start rich (high O2# on SM) and work down and tune for highest MPH no knock

Pacecarta,

To your point, I adjusted the fuel press up from 48psi to 52psi static in an attempt to increase/richen my O2 readings in 3rd gear. It worked somewhat, my readings went from 740/722 TO 769/738. As you know, at the begining of 3rd gear the number is higher, and as the O2 heats up it drops. I was looking for a constant reading to leave it be. Oh yeah NO KNOCK whatsoever...audible or scanmaster.

I will give this, the car did feel a bit snappier with the lower fuel press, however, I wanted to make her fatter for safety. I may be leaving a few ponies on the table, but thats okay...my HG will thank me later.

To your point, I conducted all of my fuel (WOT and 1st gear) AND spark (1st/2nd & 3rd/4th) through the chip parameters calibration option. You know, the stepping on the gas pedal three times and adjust parameters sequence.

So you are suggesting putting my FP back down to 43psi static??? I already have my WOT set to 154 (+20%) WITH the FP at 52psi static. I would think that if I to her down to 43 or 45psi it would be a little on the lean side...right?

After racing, it only takes minutes to change parameters and boost level, so I can easily go back to whimpy mode for the drive back home if I run out of 117oct. I have the feeling that I may never go back to 93oct, and if so, an Alky kit will be call to duty. I think my local track sells 110 leaded..push comes to shove, I would mix it in with my 117oct leaded!

Thanks

Please keep the suggestions coming...I'm a newbie at this GN stuff but not to racing. I had a 9.54@139 Supercharged 5.0 back in the mid to late 90's

 

[graza002]

Thanks guys.

Weather permitting, tomorrow I will make my way to the track and test her out with some real shoes and NOT with my originals 215-65-15 GY tires.

I can't find a torque strap between now and tomorrow, but I'll bet that you guys have some ideas as to how to make my own one by visiting the Hardware store...right?

So, you guys are not to worry about my 738 O2 readings at 24psi boost with 52psi stactic fuel press?

Thanks

I have one!!!! 20.00 and its yours. I can ship it out today!!!

 

[pacecarta]

running 52 static and 24psi (with intentions of running higher yet so you say) wont be long before your looking at those gaskets on a bench if you extend your range through the full 1/4 mile and the pump starts dropping down

either way if you're maxed (+20%) on you chip and using the Fuel pressure to supplement then besides running richer (and probably slower) in the lower gears before boost builds (you could lean the 1st gear in the 5.6 chip to improve spoolup)
you need to watch your fuel pressure during a run and also look at the injector pulsewidth , im telling you 76psi at the rail is too much to rely on the 340pump which might explain why you are adding 20% to keep it happy

looks to me like you need a a new chip or a reburn for higher boost or run less boost , I know i can hear you now ..like that will happen once youve tasted high boost , this is why alky is so addictive no more low boost and always in kill mode (or close enough for all takers)

 

[yullose]

Are you still running on the 93 octane street chip at those boost levels ?

If it were me, I'd have another chip burned just for those boost levels and 117octane fuel.
I didn't think the low boost chips had enough room to tune that much more fuel into them to offset the higher boost levels.


I keep three chips on hand.

One is a 93 octane street chip for 16-18psi boost and 18 degrees timing...
One is a 93 octane Alky chip for 27+ psi boost and 23 degrees timing...
One is a 116 octane race chip for 25-27psi boost and 26 degrees timing...


And... Ditto what Pace said...
Lower the fuel pressure to the chip specs and let the injectors compensate for the add'l fuel required.

Whenever I tried adding a bunch more fuel pressure, all I'd get was leaner top end readings. The pump just couldn't make enough pressure to keep up with the 1:1 increase over the higher static setting.

 

[VadersV6]

Resist the temptation to keep messing with it. Your car is obviously now at the point its really kicking butt.
Like I said, start with as much timing as you can. Add boost. If you get knock, add fuel. Add more boost. If you knock, add more fuel. If you reach a point where you simply have to add way to much fuel and you're blowing smoke to get rid of knock, then pull a couple degrees of timing instead. Reach the point where you're on the ragged edge of detonation, then pull a few degrees of timing, maybe even 4, and you will have a safe tune, that kicks ass and wont detonate no matter what batch of gas you get.
Im glad to have helped, if even a little. Ive pulled most of the hair out of my head trying to find what works on this thing.
I would recommend going with an alky system now and forget about the race gas, unless you can afford it I guess. With alky I like to have the pump speed at 100% to get the most line pressure and best spray pattern. Start with max timing. With alky spraying and timing on kill, pull fuel until you start to knock, then increase a bit. Add more boost. Pull fuel till you knock, then add fuel. Add more boost, etc. No need to stress over timing, as long as the fueling is good enough to deal with it. The happy O2 number will be alot different with alky than straight fuel, and the fueling will be leaned out quite a bit, because regardless of what people say, alky is combustible and does act as fuel. It doesnt hold nearly the same energy content as gas, but does burn.. Plus Alky gets your intake manifold air temps down to freezing temps which is pretty cool!
On my cobra, I had a walbro 307 pump, which is a return fuel system style pump, and I had this on a returnless fuel system'd car. Totally the wrong pump, and no alot of support for big HP...according to many. But I had 42's, the 307 pump, and a kenne bell boost a pump set on a mere 5% overdrive, and it was plenty to handle 600hp. The boost a pumps are an awesome invention. Its too bad more of them arent on TR's. The pump gets as high as 18 volts to it (at full overdrive), but only when the hobbs switch triggers..only when you need it. And they PWM (pulse width modulation) the wave so that it doesnt hurt the fuel pump's motor.

 

[MyBoosta]

So Mr. Pacecarta and Mr. Yullose,

What you guys are telling me is that I will run fatter on top (higher O2 readings possibly) if I WERE TO LOWER MY STATIC FUEL PRESS FROM 52psi down to 43 or 45psi???

I seems that I would run very lean if the FP is not increased...help me understand...please. I will say this, my pump is more audible now after the 117oct went in and the fuel press was increased. I don't know guys, I was able to fight off detonation by increasing my fuel via the chip and the fuel rail with this TE-44 on pump and race gas.

Oh yes, I did lean out the 1st gear adjsutment to about 17.2%, and yes, she spools up like a black and decker drill.

Yes, I'm using a 93 street chip...but you can adjust the spark and fuel if you wish to run higher boost.

I hear ya Mr. VadersV6, but now this fuel suggestion got me thinking.

So now what. Crap, I thought I was ready to take a night off from testing and wait until track day tomorrow. I want to make sure eerything go as well as possible, that is why I've been testing like mad these last few nights. So if I have to at it again so be it! Please let me know

Yes, I started with straight 117oct, but I may have to buy some 110oct leaded at the track so I don't run out. Having 114.8oct is not so bad either!

Thanks

Thanks

 

[pacecarta]

What you guys are telling me is that I will run fatter on top (higher O2 readings possibly) if I WERE TO LOWER MY STATIC FUEL PRESS FROM 52psi down to 43 or 45psi???

no not if you run that boost with that fp on a chip designed for lower boost with a 340pump
start lower boost and pressure at 43psi and work your way up watching everything

one the pump cant keep up with the line pressure at your levels ,
i know this seems hard to beleive but higher pump pressure will lead to lower volume

if you get a chip with more injector duty cycle (burned for higher boost) you can then go back to static at 42psi then when running at 24psi boost you will have 66psi (more in the range of the pump) and there will be more fuel available at the rail and with the new chip the injectors will be open longer (closer to full open ) maintaining the fuel the engine needs and youll still have the ability to increase the chip if needed almost to the 100% limit of the injectors

 

[bison]

Welcome to the world of kicking A$$ with a TR. Im with pacecarta on the reburn. You shouldnt need to go above 43 on Eric's chips. You need him to simply burn in more pulse width. You must remember that if you increase fuel pressure your increase in fuel is totally linear at WOT once the MAFS is maxed out and block learn is locked out if the pump can keep up. He can selectively add in pulse width at higher rpm where you probably need it more than anything. Anything over 70 psi is getting into the danger zone with a 340. Some cars are fine to almost 10.80's and some are leaning out at low 11's with a single 340. Its a crap shoot that you dont want to be on the $hit end of. Its easier for the pump to maintain output at lower pressures. Simply stated your better off with more pulse width and lower pressure to be safe. Id go for the HR engine mount also over a torque strap. Now do some suspension work and report back. Your prbably going to want a taller tire than the 26" stock height.

 

[MyBoosta]

What you guys are telling me is that I will run fatter on top (higher O2 readings possibly) if I WERE TO LOWER MY STATIC FUEL PRESS FROM 52psi down to 43 or 45psi???

no not if you run that boost with that fp on a chip designed for lower boost with a 340pump
start lower boost and pressure at 43psi and work your way up watching everything

one the pump cant keep up with the line pressure at your levels ,
i know this seems hard to beleive but higher pump pressure will lead to lower volume

if you get a chip with more injector duty cycle (burned for higher boost) you can then go back to static at 42psi then when running at 24psi boost you will have 66psi (more in the range of the pump) and there will be more fuel available at the rail and with the new chip the injectors will be open longer (closer to full open ) maintaining the fuel the engine needs and youll still have the ability to increase the chip if needed almost to the 100% limit of the injectors

Okay Pacecarta,

You are right, it makes perfect sense to me now...I just had to put on my thinking cap for a minute.:biggrin:

Now here is my problem. I just realized WHY my car never had the right amount of fuel on top to begin with. When I ordered my TT chip back in early Dec '06, I told Eric that I had a stock turbo and stock DP. Well, since then I came across a TE-44 and a THDP, so now I fear that my chip does not have enough fuel built in it to compensate for the extra air from the TE-44, and that is why I could never ever see readings in the high 700's or low 800's as everyone was claiming:frown:

Now this sucks because I don't know if I should race the car with this chip tomorrow or period. I've been jacking with Chip parameter adjustments and FP to get her fat on top...I was working against the programs of the car
Yeah, the 50inj are the same then and now, does that matter?

So, what can I do between now and tomorrow? Darn, all this work I did...all for nothing it seems. I don't want to go out and blow a HG on top since I may be running out of fuel because my pump is being asked to support 76psi on top and it can't!

Crap! What would you do if you were me?

Thanks :redface:

 

[VadersV6]

Guess how much fuel pressure Im running? 34psi line off with 50's and 23psi and a TE-44.
Runs great. I havent had to richen the chip up at all. And yes, volume does decrease with pressure.
Fuel pressure is just like everything else. There is no magic number to shoot for. Start low, then tune in that sequence I mentioned. If you're richening it up in the chip and its not making enough of a difference in A/F, up the pressure.

 

[pacecarta]

the te44 needs 10-15% more injector duty right off the bat , add that its burned for 17psi not 24 and add in another 20% , you need a new chip
i had my chip burned 10% over what a ta49 should use , i could back it down if need be for my stocker but still be able to use it for my te 44 and ta49

heres a flow chart for the walbros so you can see how volume falls way off where you were running the pressure at

 

[pacecarta]

oh to clear up
the 190l is the old 307 pump not too good past 65 psi
the 255l is for the 340 pump again better than the 340 but fading fast above 70

the 255l hipsi is the inline walbo

and those are at pump pressures and volumes , doesnt get better through old filters or stock restrictive lines

you can see the diff between 66psi and 76 psi
66 psi = ~45 gallon /hr
76 psi = ~28gallon/hr

 

[RUQWKNF]

If you are gung ho to test and tune, and can't get a chip with more duty cycle in time to go T&T, then turn the boost down and the fp down so the car is crisp and spool up is maintained. Knowing that you have a street chip that was fueled for a stock turbo, this changes your useable boost levels. I know from other street chips that I've used in the past, they would typically be burned with 60-75% duty cycles. I can see now why your car is showing lower O2 numbers up top at 24psi, and why it is screaming. They always run the fastest before they go boom.

Turn down the boost, tune the fuel so that the O2s are safe with zero knock and use this T&T time to perfect your launching and 60fts. No sense blowing the car up on a street chip that doesn't have enough fuel for high boost levels. But you can still experiment with timing I would think.
Don't forget, a lot of variables change once you get to the track.
It is good that you are telling everything and not leaving out anything with what you have done. A lot of people have blown their cars up or popped head gaskets not knowing all the reasons why and explanations as to why the car is running lean. I've seen way to many people just pour in C16 and crank the boost to the moon with a street chip only to blow hgs or even become a member of the DOTC club. Then they get so frustrated and ticked off at the car they turn around and sell it, rather than do their homework and treat ever thing as baby steps. Baby steps, baby steps.
Definitely keep us posted.

Patrick