TURBO 6.0 '87- Build Thread & ?'s

[bhasmer12]

Wasn't quite sure if I should post in this section or the "LSX Tech" section... My ?'s will be written in red. WARNING: This will be a bit of a read, but I prefer to ask all of my questions and answers in one place for simplicity and easy reference.

I've lurked on this page for quite a while now, but never posted due to not having one of these machines. Quite recently, that changed. Gpa bought this '87...

...to steal the motor and trans out of for his custom '33 Buick pickup. The car was involved in a front end collision that damaged the front passenger quarter panel, bumper, passenger headlight assembly, and bent the frame horn. Sadly, before we got it, the previous owner did sell a few other things off it. I just picked up a new (used) quarter panel, so I've still got to get the front and rear bumpers, tails and headlights, grill, rear end and suspension, and frame. Hopefully, some of you will be able to assist me in that. If I remember correctly, the car only has around 60k miles and no rust so this shouldn't be too difficult.
Gpa knew how much I loved these cars and gave me the body to do with what I chose. Well, since I had already started/acquired a number of parts to do an Ls swap into my '81 Camaro, I decided just to shift those plans to this car with a couple changes.
We've got a number of Ls motors lying around our shop or in other wrecks we've accumulated...'01 Ls1, '04 Ls1, '00 5.3, and two 6.0's. I think I've decided to use one of the iron 6.0's because I don't plan on touching the internals of the engine, other than a cam swap, and I know these iron blocks can take a beating. Also, the larger than 4.0" bore of the 6.0 will allow me to use L92/Ls3/LSA/Ls9 components which seem to be very well performing, budget friendly parts. I've read that the L92/Ls3 heads have a thin deck and are prone to warping in a boosted application, and that the LSA/Ls9 heads, which are almost as cheap, have a slightly thicker deck and a few other tricks that make them a much better head. If I run any of these heads, I intend to use the Ls3 or FAST intake manifold.
I had a t56 to put into my Camaro, so I had PSIConversion make me an engine harness for it. For this car, I plan on using a big stall (3600-4000) auto such as a 4l60. I'd like to save a few bucks and use it that harness in this build, but Will that work? Or will it need to be modified to work with an automatic such as the 4l60? What other auto tranny would work well for me and take a beating? If I remember correctly, the 4L60's have another computer to control them. I guess I'll just call up PSI and see what they can do or recommend. I don't necessarily have to use the 4L60, but they're really cheap and abundant around me and I have some connections with people locally that can build them to be very strong for an affordable price.
I'm looking for north of 600hp/tq at the tire. I plan on doing the JY budget turbo build with this. I've read that On3 Performance has some surprisingly good and reliable turbos that don't cost an arm and a leg. Has anybody on here had good luck with their products? I intend to run this car on e85 mixed with some meth injection. With a good turbo cam, the 6.0, most likely LSA/Ls9 heads, Ls3 or FAST intake, what size turbo would work well to get me over 600whp/wtq and get me into the 10's? It'll be a street car more than track car so I don't necessarily need a turbo that will spool up on me super quick. That would probably just get me into trouble on the street.

SWAP ?'s
A popular rear end swap for the 2nd gen. Camaro guys is to use the 8.8 rears out of Explorers. They've got discs, 31 spline, 3.73 gears, and are damn near bulletproof. I have an IRS rear from one for my Camaro and was thinking about picking up the solid axle version for this car because the junkyard by me sells them for $150. Have any of you guys done or heard of somebody doing this in one of these G-bodies? I've got access to some Ford 9" rears at our farm, too, but the Explorer would be ideal if it can be made to work with how strong it already is, and I wouldn't have to worry about a disc conversion with the 9".
As stated before, my frame is bent. I'm fairly confident the body shop guys at school would be able to pull it straight, but I'm not confident in taking that frame down the track in excess of 130mph. So...is a base Regal frame or any other G-body frame of the same generation able to be swapped underneath? Or is the frame exclusive to GN's?
I'm probably going to do some suspension upgrades as I mod this car. Where is a good place to find some affordable suspension upgrades for these cars? I realize I'll have to account for having a rear end besides the stock one.
Are there any complications with the swap that I should be aware of? I know with the 2nd gen. F-bodies that using the '98-'02 F-body oil pans were a must or you would run into clearance issues. Is this the same for these cars?

Well, that's pretty much all I have for now. I know I have to be forgetting some things so I'll update this and ask more questions as they come to me and as the build progresses.

Thanks for looking and any/all future help.
Brandyn

 

[BandAid]

heres my thought,to have someone build a 4l60e that will handle any kind of power will cost you an arm and leg,then its computer controlled...the GN trans builders have had the 200r4 trans mastered many yrs ago and the price for one that will take alot of power is alot more reasonable then the guys stealling your money for a built 4l60,,i trust the gn trans builders alot more...and no computer needed...

turbo a 2005 5.3 litr w/2004R and call it a day..

 

[bhasmer12]

We'll be covering transmission rebuilds in class sometime either next semester or the following. Hopefully, by that point, I'm fully capable of doing my own rebuild on the 4L60. But for simplicity sake, I will definitely look into the 200-4R swap. I know those things can take a beating in fully stock form anyhow. The issue will be finding one locally or within a reasonable drive. I can't imagine with the weight and size of a transmission that they would be affordable to ship and especially not for a full-time student working part time with a few bills lol. As it is, I'm attempting to do this build remotely cheaply. I'll be doing all of the work aside from the tuning and building the driveshaft which will help, though.

 

[bhasmer12]

heres my thought,to have someone build a 4l60e that will handle any kind of power will cost you an arm and leg,then its computer controlled...the GN trans builders have had the 200r4 trans mastered many yrs ago and the price for one that will take alot of power is alot more reasonable then the guys stealling your money for a built 4l60,,i trust the gn trans builders alot more...and no computer needed...

turbo a 2005 5.3 litr w/2004R and call it a day..

We'll be covering transmission rebuilds in class sometime either next semester or the following. Hopefully, by that point, I'm fully capable of doing my own rebuild on the 4L60. But for simplicity sake, I will definitely look into the 200-4R swap. This will make keeping the existing center column easier, too. I know those things can take a beating in fully stock form anyhow. The issue will be finding one locally or within a reasonable drive. I can't imagine with the weight and size of a transmission that they would be affordable to ship and especially not for a full-time student working part time with a few bills lol. As it is, I'm attempting to do this build remotely cheaply. I'll be doing all of the work aside from the tuning and building the driveshaft which will help, though.

 

[charlief1]

A couple of things I'm gonna bring up here. The stock 2004R sucks balls power wise so you'll need to beef it up some. A cheaper alternative is the 4L80E and controler. It's larger but even out of a junk yard it should do ok without a rebuild, and if you rebuild it then it will even hold more. The 4L60E/700R4 suck worse even if they are built. The ratios are wrong and even with billet parts it won't work as god as the 2004R or the 4L80E.

On the rear, if you want to use a 9" I've got 1 that I'd be willing to sell or you can get the parts to weld on the brackets fairly cheap, but I'd put it in a jig to make sure the brackets are in the right location or you'll be screwed. The rear out of an exploder won't work because there's no upper control arm mount, however you can use a rear out of a fox chasis. It's an 8.8 but there's some fitment issues with the aftermarket brackets and arms you have to get. Something about binding worse than the stock rear.

Any of the frames from any GM metric chasis will work but you may not have the rear pad for the 4 speed tranny. I found out my frame was rotten and am modifying an 81 frame for my car. If you go this route I will tell you up front to clean the entire frame and reweld all the factory welds. QC in the late 70's early 80's was terrible. I even had an 8" section where you can see the robot miss the joint where the lower rear arms mount on the frame. I'd also brace the rear crossmember since it's known for breaking in high HP builds.

Suspension upgrades are a little subjective with each person. There's a sticky in the supension section that's got a few links in it that might help you figure out what you want to do with it. Since you're going to be running a V8 then your spring choices may be a little different than others though.

 

[bhasmer12]

A couple of things I'm gonna bring up here. The stock 2004R sucks balls power wise so you'll need to beef it up some. A cheaper alternative is the 4L80E and controler. It's larger but even out of a junk yard it should do ok without a rebuild, and if you rebuild it then it will even hold more. The 4L60E/700R4 suck worse even if they are built. The ratios are wrong and even with billet parts it won't work as god as the 2004R or the 4L80E.

On the rear, if you want to use a 9" I've got 1 that I'd be willing to sell or you can get the parts to weld on the brackets fairly cheap, but I'd put it in a jig to make sure the brackets are in the right location or you'll be screwed. The rear out of an exploder won't work because there's no upper control arm mount, however you can use a rear out of a fox chasis. It's an 8.8 but there's some fitment issues with the aftermarket brackets and arms you have to get. Something about binding worse than the stock rear.

Any of the frames from any GM metric chasis will work but you may not have the rear pad for the 4 speed tranny. I found out my frame was rotten and am modifying an 81 frame for my car. If you go this route I will tell you up front to clean the entire frame and reweld all the factory welds. QC in the late 70's early 80's was terrible. I even had an 8" section where you can see the robot miss the joint where the lower rear arms mount on the frame. I'd also brace the rear crossmember since it's known for breaking in high HP builds.

Suspension upgrades are a little subjective with each person. There's a sticky in the supension section that's got a few links in it that might help you figure out what you want to do with it. Since you're going to be running a V8 then your spring choices may be a little different than others though.

Ok. So...4L60=bad. 700-r4=worse. Got it. I'll see what I can find as far as the 4L80 vs. 200-4R goes. I'm not too worried about the weight. This thing will still be lighter than my pig of a GTO with more power. Guess I'll start scouring the bone yards and see what I come up with.
Was "Exploder" a typo? Or was that a pun? If pun, I laughed. If type, I still laughed... Feel free to PM me about the 9". I may bring one of ours up from the farm and see what we come up with. I'll start looking for some GN rears, as well. My just get the GN rear for the simplicity of it.

Gpa is quite a crafty fabricator. We'll figure out something to do with the frame. Back to the bone yard!

Tomorrow I'll spend some time in the suspension section.

Thanks, Charlie!

 

[bhasmer12]

DSE makes G-body stuff, too??? I drooled over their products for my Camaro! Who knows, maybe some of their still will find its way onto this car. We'll see what the funds are looking like at the time. Need. More. Scholarships!

 

[charlief1]

Was "Exploder" a typo? Or was that a pun? If pun, I laughed. If type, I still laughed... Feel free to PM me about the 9". I may bring one of ours up from the farm and see what we come up with. I'll start looking for some GN rears, as well. My just get the GN rear for the simplicity of it.

It wasn't a a typo, it's their nickname from when they came out. If you got hit where the filler neck was they had a habit of catching fire, and with the original twin I beam the tires would blow up due to proper maintenance not being done.

 

[bhasmer12]

It wasn't a a typo, it's their nickname from when they came out. If you got hit where the filler neck was they had a habit of catching fire, and with the original twin I beam the tires would blow up due to proper maintenance not being done.

That doesn't sound like a very good design.
In my first law class, we learned about a case involving a GM truck with the externally side-mounted gas tanks that would explode in some impacts. This mishap resulted in the death of a teenager. That teenager's parents sued GM for hundreds of millions and won (not sure on the settlement anymore). Gotta' make mistakes to learn I guess...

 

[charlief1]

That doesn't sound like a very good design.
In my first law class, we learned of a GM truck with the externally side-mounted gas tanks that would explode in some impacts. Gotta' make mistakes to learn I guess...

What your profs didn't tell you is that in most casses the "tests" were rigged to do that.

Ford designed the exploders and Firestone designed the original tires and ford complaned that the ride was to harsh for them. Ford redesigned the tires themselves and told Firestone how to do it or they wouldn't buy from them. This was told me by one of the firestone engineers while I was living in TN.

 

[Royal-T-Ltd]

DSE makes G-body stuff, too??? I drooled over their products for my Camaro! Who knows, maybe some of their still will find its way onto this car. We'll see what the funds are looking like at the time. Need. More. Scholarships!

If you ever need DSE stuff our resident DSE representative/expert is Scot W. at GNSperformance.com .... he can get you whatever you need, and his car serves as kind of a test bed for some of the stuff... he Auto X's too....

aaron

 

[bhasmer12]

If you ever need DSE stuff our resident DSE representative/expert is Scot W. at GNSperformance.com .... he can get you whatever you need, and his car serves as kind of a test bed for some of the stuff... he Auto X's too....

aaron

I'll definitely keep that in mind! Thanks!

 

[bhasmer12]

Found a 4L80 with no harness, TCM, or dipstick for $250. Should be getting it in the next week or 2. It's actually at a local transmission builder's place...just gotta' find someone with a truck to make a 2 hr. round trip with me to pick 'er up. Did a little research and found that Speartech sells a t56>4L80 adapter harness for $200. This should work with the PSI standalone harness and ECM I had made up. I still need to call PSI and see if they can match that or know for sure that will work for me.
Also, I picked up the right front fender and grill today that mine needs along with a sway bar and some extra interior stuff. The guy I bought this from just parted a car and sent the body and frame to his buddy's scrap yard. He's making a call to them for me to see if they still have it. :fingerscrossed:

 

[bhasmer12]

Got a new header panel to house the headlights coming now, too!

 

[bhasmer12]

Figured I'd update my thread seeing as how I haven't done so in a while...
Apparently, the eBay seller the header panel was bought from had them on backorder. So that's finally on its way. I've also gotten the rest of the parts from the guy we bought the car from. Started running out of room around the shop so I stuck it in an old job site trailer that wasn't being used...
Exhaust with Flowmasters welded in place of the stock mufflers (For sale if anybody is interested)...

Hood and rear bumper...

Hood is almost perfect. It took a little hit right in the front, passenger corner. No biggie.
Front driver fender, '87 GN grill, raditator, and radiator core support...

Front passenger fender with inner fender and the plastic wheel well...

Gas tank...

And I've saved the best for last. *Drum roll please...*

Isn't she just BEAUTIFUL???
Picked this gem up this afternoon for $750. Complete with 4 22" wheels, a pretty-well complete interior, SBC headers, AND... it's got an '87 8.5" 10-bolt rear in it. I think we did pretty well on this deal. Gpa wants part of the frame. I'll use the rear. I'm gonna' steal the fiberglass cowl and graft it onto my '81 Camaro. We'll sell the 22"s after we get the black paint off. And we'll scrap the body. I'll be surprised if we don't break even on this one.
Well...that's all for now.

OH! I'll be picking up the 4L80 pretty soon, too. Ended up scoring that for $200.

 

[Black Power]

good grab on that 4l80e, those are tough. Something is different in the harness or computer for them, but it shouldn't be too bad. That LS1 fbody pan might fit, it's really close with most mounts. I have a truck pan and it fits but hangs kinda low.

You can take the stock pcm harness (if you have a complete one) and rip it apart and modify it to where it's stand alone. That's what I'm doing. I labeled every wire coming out of the 2 connectors with tape then pushed the pins out, I tossed the crap that I didn't need (like the a/c, MAF, trans stuff (I'm going TH350), etc) so my harness is about half the size it was. It won't be tangled now, and I'll cut and solder the wires to the correct length so it looks clean when the harness is laid out and installed on the motor.

http://www.lt1swap.com/2000harness.htm

 

[bhasmer12]

good grab on that 4l80e, those are tough. Something is different in the harness or computer for them, but it shouldn't be too bad. That LS1 fbody pan might fit, it's really close with most mounts. I have a truck pan and it fits but hangs kinda low.

You can take the stock pcm harness (if you have a complete one) and rip it apart and modify it to where it's stand alone. That's what I'm doing. I labeled every wire coming out of the 2 connectors with tape then pushed the pins out, I tossed the crap that I didn't need (like the a/c, MAF, trans stuff (I'm going TH350), etc) so my harness is about half the size it was. It won't be tangled now, and I'll cut and solder the wires to the correct length so it looks clean when the harness is laid out and installed on the motor.

http://www.lt1swap.com/2000harness.htm

The guy I'm getting the 4L80 from has actually been storing it at a semi-local transmission builder's place. That guy has actually talked with John at PSI Conversion who made my standalone harness and they've got it all figured out. Thank God! I guarantee that conversation went much more smoothly with them talking vs. John and I having the same conversation lol. I'm just going to send John back the harness he made for my Ls/t56 swap and he's going to send back an Ls/4L80 swap harness. And he said to send back the computer and he'll put a basic 6.0 (currently tuned for 5.3) and automatic tune on it for me. All this is going to cost me is a $25 upcharge for the 4L80 and shipping. John is a super guy. Very knowledgable and has always been willing to answer my questions. I HIGHLY RECOMMEND him and PSI Conversion for anybody looking to do any swaps.

When I was looking to do this swap into my Camaro, I was told the F-body pan is the one I needed. If I don't NEED that for this build, I'd much rather save that $250 and put it into another part of the build (possibly a "better" turbo!). But...I plan on driving this thing on the street some, and REALLY don't want to bust the pan. How low does it hang? I'm not against modifying the pan, but I can't really think of a way of doing this without having to modify the pickup tube, too, and I'm not sure how that would work out. Next time I'm at my shop, I'll have to throw the pickup tube and pan back on the motor just to see how it all fits. It's been a while since I've had that whole motor together.

 

[Black Power]

It hangs probably about 2 inches under the crossmember. If you don't wheelie and don't run stuff over, it'll be fine. Or if you do either of those, just shut it off so it doesn't destroy the engine, lol. Yeah if you cut and weld the pan you have to shorten the pickup tube also.

 

[bhasmer12]

It hangs probably about 2 inches under the crossmember. If you don't wheelie and don't run stuff over, it'll be fine. Or if you do either of those, just shut it off so it doesn't destroy the engine, lol. Yeah if you cut and weld the pan you have to shorten the pickup tube also.

I might be able to live with that. But now I'm gonna' have to get under the '87 and see where the crossmember sits in these things. I need to get more familiar with these Regals. I''ll be monitoring the oil pressure and might even look into having one of 2 tuners, who happen to be really good with computers and programming, write some code to cut the engine if oil pressure drops below a given parameter (if that's even possible). I don't care too much about this stock internal motor, but if/when I have a few thousand tied up into a forged motor, that's defintely going to be something I look into. Then again, with no oil in the pan, that'll likely take out the turbo, too. That could be costly. Hmm...

 

[Black Power]

If you clank something hard enough to break that pan, you're gonna know it. If it happens, and your oil pressure drops for a few seconds (5 or so) before you shut it off, it'll live. Think about how the lifters rattle after an oil change before the new hit of oil gets through the motor. And the turbo would be fine too, as long as it wasn't at 60,000 rpm with no oil for 10 seconds...lol.