Time to go Stage II!

Do you run on a sportsman tree? I still dont understand why you use a bottle if your not running a pro tree?You cant get it to spool with your brakes before you hit the trans brake and put the last light on? Im just sayin:)
 
geno said:
Do you run on a sportsman tree? I still dont understand why you use a bottle if your not running a pro tree?You cant get it to spool with your brakes before you hit the trans brake and put the last light on? Im just sayin:)
Click to expand...
Yes, I do run on a sportsman tree. The Stage I just couldn't budge the boost gauge on its own. That short stroke engine would hit the 3,200 rpm stall speed of the torque converter and that was it. There just wasn't enough exhaust energy to push that giant hot side. There's a lot of things about that combination that is a lot different than what everyone else is doing. It's not surprising that you wouldn't understand. The whole combination was put together with the idea that nitrous would be used to spool the turbo. You don't configure a combination that revolves around the use of nitrous, take the nitrous away, then wonder why it doesn't perform like other cars that are configured without nitrous in the picture.
I don't expect the Stage II will be any different. The hot side on this turbo is ginormous.
 
Tony brought to light some interesting points about this Stage II combination.
The Stage I engine developed good launch power at around 5,500 rpm and 165 kPa MAP. Around 9 psi boost?
The sim is showing that the Stage II combination will develop the same power at 5,500 rpm, but at around 15-17 psi boost. That will be due to the larger cam I'll be using with this combination.
It's going to take more time for the nitrous to push the turbo to 15 psi boost with the Stage II, big cammed combination than it did to push the Stage I combination to just 9 psi with the smaller cam.
How much more time is that going to take to be launch ready?

The size of the nitrous shot is maxed out. There's no going any larger on the hit that passes through the engine.
The afterburner! I haven't found the limit with the afterburner tune yet. Hmmm.
 
Alky V6 said:
It's not surprising that you wouldn't understand..
Click to expand...
Seems like alot of extra wires,lines,bottles,regulators, solenoids,plumbing and BS for nothing in return when you could just put the right turbo on and go faster like the TSO guys do.I guess im just kinda dumb and follow the beaten path and try to improve on that path instead of making my own path and get lost.Im a keep it simple stupid guy so i guess your right i dont understand.
 
geno said:
Seems like alot of extra wires,lines,bottles,regulators, solenoids,plumbing and BS for nothing in return when you could just put the right turbo on and go faster like the TSO guys do.I guess im just kinda dumb and follow the beaten path and try to improve on that path instead of making my own path and get lost.Im a keep it simple stupid guy so i guess your right i dont understand.
Click to expand...
Gene, you and I are simply different. I chose to do some scientific exploring. To see what was outside the box. To see what was possible with nitrous paired with methanol and a turbo. If it didn't work out, I would have figured out a different path. Maybe would have turned back onto the good ol' beaten path that you chose. The thing is, it did work. And it worked bitchin'.
I've never been the type to follow the herd. I like to figure new things out for myself. See what's on the other side. If I really wanted to make things easy for myself so that I could spend more time on the couch watching TV and drinking beer, I would have hired someone else to build and tune me a large, naturally aspirated BBC.

One of the reasons why I chose to try nitrous to spool the turbo as quickly as possible,... do you realize that the temperature inside a torque converter can rise 50 degrees per second when you're sitting there stalling it on the brakes/transbrake? Ever seen what happens to a TC and trans after a person has already spent 5 or more seconds to spool up their turbo, then gets burned down by his opponent at the line? I'm a transmission tech, so I've seen what happens. It's not pretty, and I wanted to avoid having that happen to me.
If you drag race with a turbo, one of these days you'll get paired up with an A hole that wants to burn you, your torque converter and transmission to the ground. It will happen,... and it will end up costing you a pretty penny.
Nothing in return? Hardly.
 
I've seen some interesting plumbing and other assorted BS that other turbo racers have come up with to combat being burned down at the line, but going the nitrous route seems easier and much more fun to me. :D
Have a great race day.
 
What is the right size of turbo that Gene is suggesting, because his choice of turbo seems to work well in his combo! Donnie can we get the exact specs of your turbo?
 
norbs said:
What is the right size of turbo that Gene is suggesting, because his choice of turbo seems to work well in his combo! Donnie can we get the exact specs of your turbo?
Click to expand...
You'll have to ask Gene that question.
I think I've already posted my turbo specs in this thread. I'll check. If I haven't, I'll post them up.
 
Chevota said:
Hey Don., still using the spool valve?
Click to expand...
No. The spool valve was half as effective as the nitrous with the afterburner tune, and when I tried to use the valve along with the nitrous, the spool up time was the same as it was with just using the spool valve alone. I ended up not using the valve at all. I just left it open.
The valve will not be on this new build.

How's your deal going? I haven't heard anything new.
 
Norb's. When comparing large turbos, pay attention to the turbine max flow in lbs/min., along with the efficiency percentage. That will give you an idea of the hp range that the turbine supports, how much backpressure it might develop, and how difficult it might be to spool up, when comparing one turbine to another for a particular engine.
There aren't many turbines that flow more than the AirWerks S510.
 
I am going to assume Geno is using gt4788 and the the biggest housing flows 55 lb/min, yours flows 70lb/min, i would say your turbine is oversized for your application. Geno can you give us more details on your turbo to verify?
 
norbs said:
What is the right size of turbo that Gene is suggesting, because his choice of turbo seems to work well in his combo! Donnie can we get the exact specs of your turbo?
Click to expand...
Im by far no expert or claim to be anything im not ,but id do use common sense and keep it simple stupid. Donnie i don't post on your threads to bust your balls and i respect the fact you try to think outside the box. I just dont have the time or patience to think as far outside the box as you do and go straight for the best results using what everybody else has proven to work.Its just as fun to take the same parts as alot of people use and go faster if you can.I guess thats thinking inside the box..
 
Norbs, anything smaller on the turbine side will choke down some of that top end hp.
I'll give you an important clue. Exhaust backpressure. The lower the better, IF you can make it work for you.
 
Crossover is defined as having a lower exhaust backpressure than the intake boost pressure. A better than 1:1 exhbp to intbp ratio. A condition that is not commonly found in the turbocharger world. Simply put, achieving crossover makes horsepower.

There's a very good reason why they call achieving crossover the 'Holy Grail' of turbocharging.
 
norbs said:
I am going to assume Geno is using gt4788 and the the biggest housing flows 55 lb/min, yours flows 70lb/min, i would say your turbine is oversized for your application. Geno can you give us more details on your turbo to verify?
Click to expand...
A S510 turbocharger is rated for as much as 1,650 hp. A compressor is typically matched to a turbine that will support the same hp range.
I'm calculating that this engine will hopefully put out about 1,580 bhp. Norbs, how do you figure the turbine is too big?
It is bigger than the GT47. Heck, it's even bigger than the GT55. But is it really too big?
The S510 falls in there between the GT55 and the GT60. Closer to the GT55.
 
Don, I was wondering about the amount of torque and hp produced over the totality of the run (area under the curve). Have you done any calculations to compare what horsepower X will obtain if it is generated sooner in the run vs horsepower Y that may have a greater peak but does not equal in magnitude until later that hp X? I have two exhaust housings and contemplating back pressure. Thanks for your theoretical and experimental approach to this stuff. Most of us think on the applied level (me included).
 
Alky V6 said:
Crossover is defined as having a lower exhaust backpressure than the intake boost pressure. A better than 1:1 exhbp to intbp ratio. A condition that is not commonly found in the turbocharger world. Simply put, achieving crossover makes horsepower.

There's a very good reason they call achieving crossover the 'Holy Grail' of turbocharging.
Click to expand...

Which is why guys swap to twins. Lower bp than boost and spool's without nitrous.
 
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