My buick is getting a TSM motor and I'm gonna need to step up to a stronger trans. I know there arent many of you who drive your race car on the street, but this is florida. I dont wanna lose overdrive and I dont wanna spend 3k on a built 2004r that I'm gonna break. Makes more sense to spend 2k for a FAST and 1k for a built 400. Any opinions???
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Th400
- Thread starter Wht87T
- Start date
There are some companies that make the 4L60 (I think that is right) that is a 400 with over drive. You may want to check into that. There are also some companies that make the Ford tranny with over drive set up to race.
I don't know the name of the shops that do this but have read about them. I was not intrested in the over drive and that is why I never kept the information
Good Luck
I don't know the name of the shops that do this but have read about them. I was not intrested in the over drive and that is why I never kept the information
Good Luck
if your looking for a th400 check out www.ckperformance.com.as for the aod our fellow board member is talking about ,it can handle 900 hpwr and has odrive .you will find it there also.the 400 is alot less than the 2004r ,but our gnational aod is more than our aod .both units require a new convertor as you cant retro fit your 2oo4r convertor to either .all3 will work however .how much hp are we making?www.ckperformance.com
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
OD is overrated. I keep telling people, until you drive a 9-second car on the street you don't know what it's like to hate driving a 9-second car on the street! Besides, lots of street driving with an 800 HP motor is a lot of wear and tear on the valve train. You'll probably be pulling the heads and doing valve jobs long before your trans will blow up.Originally posted by Buicksx2
Should be quite a ride.
FWIW Art Paltz drives his 9.8 stage car to and from track 25 plus miles with his 400 trans.......no biigie in his opinion.
It's a give and take. I have a loose converter and can travel at 55-60 MPH and I'm only pulling like 2500 RPM (3.73:1 rear, 28” high tires). If you are looking to cruise around at 75 MPH then don't build a 9-second car. Stick to the high 10's, 200R and enjoy the years between rebuilds.
It's a give and take. If you want to go fast you need to make some compromises. I can't afford a trailer or a tow vehicle (that's why I mooch them when I can). Maybe someday I'll have a truck and trailer but I think I'll be going through a few more motor refreshes and rebuilds before then. My engine builder cringes when I tell him I drive 25 miles at 55-60 MPH to the track, bang off a few 9-second passes then drive 25 miles back. Probably why next rebuild I'll be most likely be replacing valve seats but that's racing...
Driving a high lift roller cam around on the street is a lot of stress on springs, lifters, and rockers. You should expect to replace these. Springs are normal at rebuild but probably replace lifters too (I did). Rocker adjusters on 4 of my rockers are really tight too, lots of pounding on them on a high ramp-up roller. Probably have to replace them next rebuild too. If you go with a hydraulic roller it’s probably a lot less stress on the lifters and rocker adjusters but then it’s not half as much fun as a billet roller… J
at these power levels nothing beats a turbo 400 .and with 8 different gear ratios available thru us as well as our pro tree brake,and aluminum drums the 400 is still one of the most versatile masterpieces of all automatic transmissions.sure guys are going nines w/a 2004r built by us but they are very unpredictable when you put them at the edge of a cliff.www.ckperformance.com
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
Anyone wanting to go 9's should listen to Chris, he knows his stuff! TH400 will rob an additional 20HP from you (using stock steel parts) but you won't have headaches. The 200R is a great transmission and can be pushed further than anyone could have thought back in the 80's (just like our little V6) but you are going to have to keep rebuilding it. Most people will tell you that running a 200R into the 9's will probably need a rebuild every 100 passes and you will find things broken and in need of replacement.Originally posted by chris718
at these power levels nothing beats a turbo 400 .and with 8 different gear ratios available thru us as well as our pro tree brake,and aluminum drums the 400 is still one of the most versatile masterpieces of all automatic transmissions.sure guys are going nines w/a 2004r built by us but they are very unpredictable when you put them at the edge of a cliff.www.ckperformance.com
200R in a 9-second car that is street driven a lot, you better get a second job cause it's going to get costly between the motor and transmission. I’m not talking about the 2 mile sunny Sunday drives that some people consider street driving, I’m talking longer distances or every day use.
John, if you are planning to drive your car every day you should talk to Cal about this, make sure he knows this. Going fast is great but being down more than up is no fun!
Art
One of the first things I told cal was that it was going to be street driven. He knows that and I'm sure he's taken it into consideration. Yes a built 200 with OD would be nice but I'll be wasting my money. Both orlando and the track are an hr away from here, but thats the price I'm gonna have to pay. Like my old man said "if you wanna go fast ur gonna pay the price"
What happened to the 3.42s out back? I still have the stock rear and a 26" tall tire for the street. A loose converter might not be that bad afterall. I should start savin the rest of my pennies and buy a beater like every other college student has. lol And its getting a billet roller but not with humongous lift. Its all give and take I've allready made some compromises.
Rich
You're right I'll probabally have to bring a change of underwear to the track. I've got some pics of the newly installed 6-pt I'll send you some pics.
Thanks for all the info guys!
One of the first things I told cal was that it was going to be street driven. He knows that and I'm sure he's taken it into consideration. Yes a built 200 with OD would be nice but I'll be wasting my money. Both orlando and the track are an hr away from here, but thats the price I'm gonna have to pay. Like my old man said "if you wanna go fast ur gonna pay the price"
What happened to the 3.42s out back? I still have the stock rear and a 26" tall tire for the street. A loose converter might not be that bad afterall. I should start savin the rest of my pennies and buy a beater like every other college student has. lol And its getting a billet roller but not with humongous lift. Its all give and take I've allready made some compromises.
Rich
You're right I'll probabally have to bring a change of underwear to the track. I've got some pics of the newly installed 6-pt I'll send you some pics.
Thanks for all the info guys!
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
Re: Art
It depends on the distance and route to the track. If it's all highways at 60 MPH then that's a lot of stress an hour each way. I usually try not to take my car above 50 MPH and the 25 miles takes me about 40-45 mines to get to the track as only about half is on Rt. 1 and Rt. 18. Believe me, it's a lot of wear and tear.
If you are only going to run 26" tires then it's fine. Even 28's are OK depending on which guru you ask. I run a 29.5" slick. In a stage car with 30" slicks I should probably have 3.90's minimum but like I said, I drive to the track so having 3.73's and 28" tires works well. If I stepped up to the 3.90's or 4.10's then I'd really be putting a lot of stress on the motor on the highway. Also, it's a combination. I run a T-76 turbo so with my combination max HP is about 5850 on the dyno so I need less gear otherwise I'm revving it way past the limit of the motor. It's also a reliability thing, less RPM's on the motor, less boost, etc. longer life. I'm shifting about 6200 RPM's and going through the traps at about the same so the combination works well at the 20 or so psi of boost I run depending on the weather.
I'm sure Cal is going to replace the stock posi with an Eaton or something. Probably girdle it too, would be a smart move. If you are going to continue to run the 26" tires then stick with the stock gearing. If you are going to step up to a larger tire to get a longer footprint and more traction then you may consider 3.73's. It all depends on your combination. No one can make a decision without knowing the total package. You know, great cam, crappy heads and the combo doesn't work, stuff like that.
Loose converter is a relative thing. You'll probably be going with a 3000-3500 stall converter. I doubt you'd need more than that. Depends on where you are revving the motor to and where the power band of the motor will be. Again, all combination.
You're dad is a wise man, that's why I like him!
Yes John, of course it's getting a billet roller, don't want a fiasco like the non-billet debacle again. With a billet roller cam you have very aggressive ramp up speeds and a hardened (billet) cam to handle it. To handle these ramp angles you need a roller lifter. You have a choice of going with either a hydraulic lifter or a solid lifter (just like with a non roller cam). A solid lifter needs to have the lash checked frequently like any other solid lifter. If you have a hydraulic lifter you don't need to check as often if ever at all. A hydraulic lifter is also going to take up some of the pounding on the valve train as the cam ramps up (it’ll compress a little to take up the shock). With a solid lifter the valve train is put under a lot of stress because the cam isn't going to give so the lifter, pushrod, rocker and valve are opened very quickly. This is great cause the faster you open the valve the more fuel you can get into the combustion chamber. The trade off is a lot of stress and wear. I think most people that are going to drive their car on the street go with a hydraulic lifter. I'm not sure but I'd imagine you're probably limited to about .600-lift with a hydraulic but that's just a guess on my part. Smarter people than me would know for sure. I do know with really high lifts comes higher spring pressures and a hydraulic lifter will end up bottoming out so you'd have to go with a solid lifter.Originally posted by Wht87T
One of the first things I told cal was that it was going to be street driven. He knows that and I'm sure he's taken it into consideration. Yes a built 200 with OD would be nice but I'll be wasting my money. Both orlando and the track are an hr away from here, but thats the price I'm gonna have to pay. Like my old man said "if you wanna go fast ur gonna pay the price"
What happened to the 3.42s out back? I still have the stock rear and a 26" tall tire for the street. A loose converter might not be that bad afterall. I should start savin the rest of my pennies and buy a beater like every other college student has. lol And its getting a billet roller but not with humongous lift. Its all give and take I've allready made some compromises.
Rich
You're right I'll probabally have to bring a change of underwear to the track. I've got some pics of the newly installed 6-pt I'll send you some pics.
Thanks for all the info guys!
It depends on the distance and route to the track. If it's all highways at 60 MPH then that's a lot of stress an hour each way. I usually try not to take my car above 50 MPH and the 25 miles takes me about 40-45 mines to get to the track as only about half is on Rt. 1 and Rt. 18. Believe me, it's a lot of wear and tear.
If you are only going to run 26" tires then it's fine. Even 28's are OK depending on which guru you ask. I run a 29.5" slick. In a stage car with 30" slicks I should probably have 3.90's minimum but like I said, I drive to the track so having 3.73's and 28" tires works well. If I stepped up to the 3.90's or 4.10's then I'd really be putting a lot of stress on the motor on the highway. Also, it's a combination. I run a T-76 turbo so with my combination max HP is about 5850 on the dyno so I need less gear otherwise I'm revving it way past the limit of the motor. It's also a reliability thing, less RPM's on the motor, less boost, etc. longer life. I'm shifting about 6200 RPM's and going through the traps at about the same so the combination works well at the 20 or so psi of boost I run depending on the weather.
I'm sure Cal is going to replace the stock posi with an Eaton or something. Probably girdle it too, would be a smart move. If you are going to continue to run the 26" tires then stick with the stock gearing. If you are going to step up to a larger tire to get a longer footprint and more traction then you may consider 3.73's. It all depends on your combination. No one can make a decision without knowing the total package. You know, great cam, crappy heads and the combo doesn't work, stuff like that.
Loose converter is a relative thing. You'll probably be going with a 3000-3500 stall converter. I doubt you'd need more than that. Depends on where you are revving the motor to and where the power band of the motor will be. Again, all combination.
You're dad is a wise man, that's why I like him!
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
Chris mentioned aod as a third option in the 4th post.Originally posted by lazaris
Or an AOD..............Chris?
Thanks Art I missed that one.
As far as hyd rollers, there is a new design that increases rpm potential without having to adjust them like a solid. Comp has them. Even better (but expensive) are the Schubeck lifters. Hyd rollers that are much lighter and will extend spring and valve train life substantially. So there are alternatives.
As far as hyd rollers, there is a new design that increases rpm potential without having to adjust them like a solid. Comp has them. Even better (but expensive) are the Schubeck lifters. Hyd rollers that are much lighter and will extend spring and valve train life substantially. So there are alternatives.
Art
Well I'm running a 275/50/15 drag radial on the street. I have a set of 28x10.5x15 ET drags on a 10" rim for the track. Flow numbers from the heads will determine if it will be a split duration cam or not. But we're looking at a 214/214 with 1.65 rockers. Since I'm gonna run TSM with it (which means I'll only make two races a year) the PT70 Q-trim is on the way. Yes its getting a RJC engine girdle with a steel stroker crank. The bottom end should hold up pretty well. I think the weak link now is actually the block but I'll stick with the 109 for now. As far as the posi unit goes I'll run it till it breaks. Then I'll replace it. The combination is pretty much maxed out. (Champion ported intake/plenum, Aluminum GN1's fully race ported etc.....) Cal's tuning of the FAST system will be the determining factor. I guess I'll have to put it on the dyno to see where it'll be making power. For now I'll run the 200 thats in it until it breaks. Then I'll put a 400 in it.
-John
Well I'm running a 275/50/15 drag radial on the street. I have a set of 28x10.5x15 ET drags on a 10" rim for the track. Flow numbers from the heads will determine if it will be a split duration cam or not. But we're looking at a 214/214 with 1.65 rockers. Since I'm gonna run TSM with it (which means I'll only make two races a year) the PT70 Q-trim is on the way. Yes its getting a RJC engine girdle with a steel stroker crank. The bottom end should hold up pretty well. I think the weak link now is actually the block but I'll stick with the 109 for now. As far as the posi unit goes I'll run it till it breaks. Then I'll replace it. The combination is pretty much maxed out. (Champion ported intake/plenum, Aluminum GN1's fully race ported etc.....) Cal's tuning of the FAST system will be the determining factor. I guess I'll have to put it on the dyno to see where it'll be making power. For now I'll run the 200 thats in it until it breaks. Then I'll put a 400 in it.
-John
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
No doubt. I know of the Schubeck lifters. Hard as hell, never wear. Expensive but really nice. I didn't know they were hyd. though, I thought they were solids? I hadn't heard of the Comp ones. Do you know what kind of lift and duration/ramp speed they can handle?Originally posted by lazaris
Thanks Art I missed that one.
As far as hyd rollers, there is a new design that increases rpm potential without having to adjust them like a solid. Comp has them. Even better (but expensive) are the Schubeck lifters. Hyd rollers that are much lighter and will extend spring and valve train life substantially. So there are alternatives.
TurboDiverArt
The Guru Thorn
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2002
Re: Art
Should be a nice combo. Cal certainly knows his stuff and won't steer you wrong.Originally posted by Wht87T
Well I'm running a 275/50/15 drag radial on the street. I have a set of 28x10.5x15 ET drags on a 10" rim for the track. Flow numbers from the heads will determine if it will be a split duration cam or not. But we're looking at a 214/214 with 1.65 rockers. Since I'm gonna run TSM with it (which means I'll only make two races a year) the PT70 Q-trim is on the way. Yes its getting a RJC engine girdle with a steel stroker crank. The bottom end should hold up pretty well. I think the weak link now is actually the block but I'll stick with the 109 for now. As far as the posi unit goes I'll run it till it breaks. Then I'll replace it. The combination is pretty much maxed out. (Champion ported intake/plenum, Aluminum GN1's fully race ported etc.....) Cal's tuning of the FAST system will be the determining factor. I guess I'll have to put it on the dyno to see where it'll be making power. For now I'll run the 200 thats in it until it breaks. Then I'll put a 400 in it.
-John
inkcushion
I need parts to go fast
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2003
Damn thats some serious HP with that kind of poweryou should be turning low 9 timeslips! You should be right behind Cal with that kind of power.Cal might have to do a rebuild soon if hes going to be having daily drivers knocking on his backdoor!!!!!!
the aod wouldnt break a sweat behind that powerplant,im starting to learn that people are afraid of the ford idea but with a 2.40/1.40 and overdrive there really is no other choice.hooks up too .,takes rotating speed out of the transmission when operating in reduction giving that killer motor some traction when using a flexible street suspension ,absorbs less flywheel horsepower and has a ravignaux style planetary that gives 4 forward speeds and one reverse using the sun gear as input ,not like others who use 3 planets or a compound planet with the ring gear as input in reduction which sucks up horsepower and is weaker.www.ckperformance.com.
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