Still problems with Hydroboost conversion...

[Nasty]

Figured I start a new thread, last one got a little hi jacked. The last I posted I received my replacement booster and it was better than before but had a problem with air in the p/s side of the system. The stopping power was not that good, the steering was jerky ESPECIALLY when steering and braking at the same time. Old post for refresher if needed http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/br...322931-hydroboost-conversion-got-problem.html.

I had tried different tee locations, length of hose, etc but always had to keep purging air after a short driving time. The condition was returning faster each time with worse symptoms. It got so bad I could not make it out of the parking lot noise was bad, steering and brakes horrible. Figured it had to be the pump going bad.

Ordered an AC Delco reman from my supplier, took a week. It came with paint flaking off, someone needs to learn how to prep before spraying .

Any how, p/s system seems to now be quiet with just a light touch of noise under load (no different than before conversion). Steering feels normal, except harder braking and steering at same time. Steering tightens up until I release the brake. I cannot get the brakes to lock up either, feels like semi-soft pedal. Reminds be of air in the brake system, or like the front brakes are not applying enough.

I re-bled the master cylinder and brake system tonight. It may be a tad better, might be in my head too. Either way, its not right. Braking when turning is an issue, light to moderate braking seems ok both stopping and turning. Hard braking, such as a panic stop only brings you to a moderate stopping rate...not a quick/hard stop. The pedal now feels like it has a click to it, kind of, but not the same, as my first issue with the pedal not coming back up. Hard to describe it. This was not there before tonight. Tonight I did the bleeding of master cylinder & lines, and took the master cylinder from the booster to check for fluid. Nothing much to mention, there was a small dampness but as much ps & brake fluid I spilled in the area, I am thinking no leaks.

I am not sure if I have one problem, such as a booster issue...or compounded problems. I am looking for suggestions to push me in a direction. The loss of steering when braking suggests to ME to replace the booster again. I am open to all suggestions. Thanks.

 

[1quick6]

Just a quick question. I noticed you have an 86. There was a problem with the power steering reservoir being too small on the 86 and they issued a new one as a replacement. Does the cap loosen by turning it to the right? If it does, you have the reissued reservoir. You'd be experiencing starvation and lots of growling if you didn't have enough volume, which you are not hearing anymore.

It sounds to me like your power steering pump is not able to keep up with the task of helping out the booster and steering box, but you have a reman on there if I am reading correctly. I don't think you have any air in the system ... it just sounds like there is not enough assist going on resulting in a weak pedal feel and diminished steering assist.

I would be surprised if you needed a third booster, but the quality of remans sure is questionable these days. It seems like they are being rebuilt one too many times or something. Sorry I don't have a definitive answer, but it sounds like there is an insufficient volume of power steering fluid to assist steering and braking. Excessive pedal and steering effort is caused by fluid starvation, a restriction in one of the lines, or a bad ps pump. Is there any possibility that one of your two pressure hoses is kinked or defective internally, i.e. plugged up? I know you have checked the return line several times, but is there something stuck in the nipple on the reservoir itself? I can't think of anything else and I can see how this is frustrating as heck.

 

[Nasty]

Yeah, kind of sucks. I blew the pressure line out when I had everthing appart to install the pump to be sure. I was thinking more volume may overcome the issue, but being others don't have a problem so there is obviously something wrong. Being the pump flow was not designed to do both, I was wondering if a slightly smaller pully would increase the volume. My RPM's would never be over 5800 and even then it only be 1/4 burst so I don't think I would over spin the pump. Maybe someone knows of a pulley with the same shaft diameter but a little small??? I am going to drive it a couple of days to see what transpires regardless. Maybe it will work itself out .

 

[1quick6]

Unless you have updated, your 86 does have the older style ps reservoir that had less capacity and smaller inside diameter on the return port. You'd know you had the updated reservoir if the cap tightens counterclockwise. That's the only other thing I can think of. It's possible that the reservoir itself is the rate limiting factor. Assuming your reman ps pump is good, there is something holding up the works that increasing the flow of the pump will not help with.

 

[jays87gn]

This mod helped mine out alot i just drlled a hole for a 3/8in barb and sealed it with the right stuff

 

[Nasty]

My cap tightens counter clockwise, so I must have the updated resevoir. Still seems small though. Always thought it odd they would design it that way. I can only imagine how may have over tightened the cap trying to get it off for the first time .

When I was initially having noise and such, I was thinking of adding another nipple to the resevoir to by-pass having the tee. Seemed like it would be a lot of fluid trying to pass through at one time. I don't think it would resolve my problem, but I don't think it would hurt anything? If others dont have this problem, then I have a bad part or something . I guess I'll keep messing around with it. I'll check back once in a while to see if any other suggestions pop up, and post back if I make progress.

Thanks everyone
Al

 

[Nasty]

Well, at the bottom of the multi language instruction sheet included in the box from AC Delco, I found a notation that if you have little or no flow, transfer the valve from the old pump to the new pump.

Well, I am not sure if they are talking about the "nut" that you remove that has the orfice hole in it or the lower cylinder that moves with the spring? I could not transfer the lower part, as the cylinder would not go all of the way down into the hole, apparanty the machined diameter is slightly different. I could see a slightly larger office in the old nut portion. I installed that and reassembled everything.

I immediately noticed that the steering felt a little stronger just sitting there idling. A test drive around the parking lot felt good, the brakes felt stronger and no steering loss while braking during turns. I still thought that the brakes could have been a little stronger. No objective noises, fluid looked good after road testing. Only slight ps noise heard under loads.

I was happy, then...next day it started getting noisey. Then real noisey, air back in fluid badly. This time I purged all the air. Then let the car idle for 10 minutes and no bubbles in fluid. I then, with the car idling, sat there and applid the brakes repeatedly. The fluid foamed up and ps became noisey. I purged the air again, drove around the parking lot in figure eights WITHOUT appling the brakes. No air in system or noise. I drove home with very little brake pedal usuage...yeah, a real challenge with the traffic lights and then the cruise on I-95. Very little air in fluid when I got home, as I only hit the brakes a couple of times the whole way. Same this morning.

This is making me think that maybe the booster has a problem. Returning this again is not what I want to do, but may have to.

The pump front shaft seal is seeping, so I am waiting on another pump still. Its hard to believe I can be having this many problems at one time .

 

[1quick6]

I have to admit, it sure seems like a string of bad luck with your reman parts. I think if my ps pump ever goes, I will just order one from powerbrake-drivetrain.com since I know it is ready out of the box. Knock on wood, but I must have just been lucky with mine. The only problem I had with regard to reman parts was that my first booster came without a nipple on the return port. I had them send it back and get me a new one because I was not fishing around at Home Depot for a fitting that may or may not work. Other than that, I have had no leaks, noise or anything at all.

I guess on the plus side, at least we know that your pump wasn't supplying enough volume. I can't tell you if what you transferred from the old to new is correct.

 

[turbonut85]

All signs point to the booster. I know you are already on your 2nd one...which sucks...but I would say go for #3. ---Keith

 

[Nasty]

I may be on to something...

I removed the nipple from the booster to check for any debri (it was ok), then started the engine to check for flow out of the booster while applying the brakes. I quickly realized that was stupid as ps fluid went spraying all over the engine from the unplugged line from the tee :redface:. The pressure/volume coming back up the return line to the booster got me thinking that it may be more than the booster is returning...hence restricting return flow from the booster when braking. Restriction = cavitation? Back when I was playing with the tee location, I did try using a straight hose from the gear to resevoir, and running the boosters return hose into the resevoir without a cap to see if it got rid of the air bubble issue. It did not seem too, and actually seemed worse. Since then, I realized that when I purge the air from the booster return line it INCREASES the air bubbles at first. I did not give it a chance to purge, and let the fluid clear. jays87gn post/picture in an earlier post made me think of retrying this again.

I removed the line with the tee, and installed a new line from the gear to the resevoir. I put the booster return line in the reservoir through the top without a cap. Again, initial results was an INCREASE in air bubbles, but I let them clear, and purged a couple of more times. I then drove it around the parking lot without a cap and the hose just lying in the resevoir . Noise was now at a min (like before), brakes felt good. No additional air in fluid. I went to Lowes, got a 3/8" threaded nipple, drilled a hole in the resevoir and installed the nipple with an o-ring. Refilled, purged, etc. Drove it around and seems good. Drove it home and back, so far so good. I need to epoxy it like jay did to reinforce it. Would like to nut/oring it from the inside but doubt I could get in there-pretty tight.

I will run it like this until my replacement pump arrives (pending it stays as good as it is now). Pump is leaking from the shaft more now . I hate reman stuff, I expected better from the Delco reman-but sh_t happens. I'll post back results as they happen.

Again, thanks everyone!!!

 

[Nasty]

Well, replaced the leaking pump, and just got my replacement booster. Brakes seem as good as I hoped. Good pedal, no abnoxious noises, no sign of air getting into the system and can now lock the brakes up if needed. Going to hold final judgement until I drive it a few days. Thanks everyone.

 

[1quick6]

Way to hang in there. It was a hassle, but the return on your time investment will be well worth it. I thought I had it bad with rounded bleeders and rounded brake line fittings.

My car has already been saved twice from idiots pulling out in front of me. Yield signs don't exist and stop signs are yield signs to the drivers in my neck of the woods.

 

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

Hydroboost problems

My company has been in the power brake business for 60 years. I have worked on most every kind of vehicle on the planet. When I first started posting here,I was shouted off, because some people were making a profit off of used vacuum booster conversions. Buick never installed vacuum boosters on turbo cars, because they would be sued for brake failures. We were a Bendix power brake W.D. for 25 years, until Bendix sold out to Bosch in 1995. Bosch closed off all aftermarket sales, and only built/sold to the automakers themselves. Bosch granted me a special pilot program to take NEW HYDROBOOSTS to marke in 2002. This implies a LOT of TRUST, and Bosch doesn't trust too many. With a few tries, members here began to use and try My hydroboosts. Then people started using "junkyard" booster to save a few dollars, but piled on headaches, instead. BRAKES are the NUMBER 1 issue on these cars. They are fast, heavy, and have little vacuum to work a vacuum booster. Brake Engineering is a little more complicated than scrounging the junkyards.
Pump noise can be caused by the tee not being right at the reservoir, but certainly will go away when the two returns are separated. Dexron III is also helpful to use to break up foam in the p/s fluid. Our aluminum p/s reservoir has the two returns tapped in.
We offer not only new units, with alum masters, but quality Stainless hose fittings that look good, and work well.

For those who do wish to use reman units in order to save some money, I do have them. The early units with the "Internal" accumulators are NOT the unit to use, as their spool bores are/were too loose to hold pressure. They are 25 years old, now, and may have been rebuilt by someone who isn't aware of the spool bore problems.

 

[Red Regal T]

My company has been in the power brake business for 60 years. I have worked on most every kind of vehicle on the planet. When I first started posting here,I was shouted off, because some people were making a profit off of used vacuum booster conversions. Buick never installed vacuum boosters on turbo cars, because they would be sued for brake failures. We were a Bendix power brake W.D. for 25 years, until Bendix sold out to Bosch in 1995. Bosch closed off all aftermarket sales, and only built/sold to the automakers themselves. Bosch granted me a special pilot program to take NEW HYDROBOOSTS to marke in 2002. This implies a LOT of TRUST, and Bosch doesn't trust too many. With a few tries, members here began to use and try My hydroboosts. Then people started using "junkyard" booster to save a few dollars, but piled on headaches, instead. BRAKES are the NUMBER 1 issue on these cars. They are fast, heavy, and have little vacuum to work a vacuum booster. Brake Engineering is a little more complicated than scrounging the junkyards.
Pump noise can be caused by the tee not being right at the reservoir, but certainly will go away when the two returns are separated. Dexron III is also helpful to use to break up foam in the p/s fluid. Our aluminum p/s reservoir has the two returns tapped in.
We offer not only new units, with alum masters, but quality Stainless hose fittings that look good, and work well.

For those who do wish to use reman units in order to save some money, I do have them. The early units with the "Internal" accumulators are NOT the unit to use, as their spool bores are/were too loose to hold pressure. They are 25 years old, now, and may have been rebuilt by someone who isn't aware of the spool bore problems.

Why are you here casting aspersions? Why are you here? No one is attacking you or your product, and yet you go on. You were ignored because you were putting out bad information. So, you're not profitting from selling your product? You want 10 times what a used vacuum set-up costs. Are you, or have you ever been a supporting vendor here? I've heard you've been unresponsive to many of your customers after they've purchased hydroboost setups from you. Basically, you're a bull$hit artist who claims to know it all, and in the same breath, put out inaccurate information such as that TTAs are carbeurated. Have you figured out our cars are turbo-charged V-6s yet? Even above you declare GM never put vacuum brakes on turbo cars. Really? You're untrustworthy, ill informed, and rather inarticulate. You're an idiot.

 

[charlief1]

Why are you here casting aspersions? Why are you here? No one is attacking you or your product, and yet you go on. You were ignored because you were putting out bad information. So, you're not profitting from selling your product? You want 10 times what a used vacuum set-up costs. Are you, or have you ever been a supporting vendor here? I've heard you've been unresponsive to many of your customers after they've purchased hydroboost setups from you. Basically, you're a bull$hit artist who claims to know it all, and in the same breath, put out inaccurate information such as that TTAs are carbeurated. Have you figured out our cars are turbo-charged V-6s yet? Even above you declare GM never put vacuum brakes on turbo cars. Really? You're untrustworthy, ill informed, and rather inarticulate. You're an idiot.

LOL Thanks John, I couldn't have said it better.:biggrin: If you catch him doing it again PM me or Shane and it will be taken care once and for all.

 

[jdpolzin]

Why are you here casting aspersions? Why are you here? No one is attacking you or your product, and yet you go on. You were ignored because you were putting out bad information. So, you're not profitting from selling your product? You want 10 times what a used vacuum set-up costs. Are you, or have you ever been a supporting vendor here? I've heard you've been unresponsive to many of your customers after they've purchased hydroboost setups from you. Basically, you're a bull$hit artist who claims to know it all, and in the same breath, put out inaccurate information such as that TTAs are carbeurated. Have you figured out our cars are turbo-charged V-6s yet? Even above you declare GM never put vacuum brakes on turbo cars. Really? You're untrustworthy, ill informed, and rather inarticulate. You're an idiot.

BLAMMO!!!!!!!!!!! One shot one kill!!!


POWERBRAKEBOB, YOUR AN IDIOT!!!!!

 

[Danster]

Another Hydroboost converter here! :biggrin:

Unfortunately, I got a reman Master Cylinder from Advance and it's no good!!!

Going to send it back.

I had spongy brakes and further manual bleeding with a helping hand diagnosed no fluid coming out of the front port. No issues on the other port.

Just wondering if I want to try to get a replacement or try and get the newer version.

Dannyo

 

[TurboDave]

Why are you here casting aspersions? Why are you here? No one is attacking you or your product, and yet you go on. You were ignored because you were putting out bad information. So, you're not profitting from selling your product? You want 10 times what a used vacuum set-up costs. Are you, or have you ever been a supporting vendor here? I've heard you've been unresponsive to many of your customers after they've purchased hydroboost setups from you. Basically, you're a bull$hit artist who claims to know it all, and in the same breath, put out inaccurate information such as that TTAs are carbeurated. Have you figured out our cars are turbo-charged V-6s yet? Even above you declare GM never put vacuum brakes on turbo cars. Really? You're untrustworthy, ill informed, and rather inarticulate. You're an idiot.

Not taking either side here, but a correction is in order. He didn't say "GM didn't use vacuum brakes on turbo cars", He said Buick didn't.

There are plenty of alternatives for use on our cars. Vacuum is one, and in most situations works pretty well. Hydroboost is another alternative, and when properly installed with good parts is actually the best system for use with turbo applications. After all, GM, Ford and many other manufacturers are using it in their turbo applications. Then there's the powermaster. Granted it can be problematic, but when properly taken care of (most weren't because owners didn't understand them) they can be just as good as the hydroboost systems.
All three systems have their uses.

 

[1quick6]

It is a little troubling that the quality of reman parts seems to have taken a downward turn lately. I don't know if they are rebuilding one too many times or what, but it sure does seem like there are a lot of bad boosters and, to a lesser extent, masters out of the box. It seems like they either don't work on day one or they work fine forever. I have only done two conversions with Cardone reman units but both have been fine.

I think all three of the braking options can be made to work well. I don't think a lot of people leave PM behind because of the general performance ... it's the price to fix when pieces go bad. If vacuum systems don't work as expected, it's usually bad installation or other components in the system are in disrepair.

All three braking systems are good. I have driven all three and prefer the pedal feel of hydroboost. The pedal in my Buick feels the same as my 96 Cobra, which also has factory hydroboost.

 

[TurboDave]

It is a little troubling that the quality of reman parts seems to have taken a downward turn lately. I don't know if they are rebuilding one too many times or what, but it sure does seem like there are a lot of bad boosters and, to a lesser extent, masters out of the box. It seems like they either don't work on day one or they work fine forever. I have only done two conversions with Cardone reman units but both have been fine.

I think all three of the braking options can be made to work well. I don't think a lot of people leave PM behind because of the general performance ... it's the price to fix when pieces go bad. If vacuum systems don't work as expected, it's usually bad installation or other components in the system are in disrepair.

All three braking systems are good. I have driven all three and prefer the pedal feel of hydroboost. The pedal in my Buick feels the same as my 96 Cobra, which also has factory hydroboost.

I would have to agree. I've driven all three systems also, and very much prefer the Hydroboost that's on my Excursion. It's amazing how well the system can haul that 8,000# monster down to a stop in a panic situation.

All three systems have thier pros and cons. One just has to weigh cost and how they plan to use the sytem, etc.