smoking problem found.... maybe

[ThikStik]

Obrut,

Did u notice an oil film in the intake manifold that even reached up to the throttle body? The reason I ask is because I agree with another poster who said a guide wont blatently smoke at idle. Just a visible puff on start up then invisible use while driving. If yes to these questions, it very wel could be a backwards ring. This will cause smoke on a prolonged idle.
Good luck

 

[obrut]

yes i had the oil film in the intake but i thought that was from the pvc sucking oil?

 

[ThikStik]

Did the car smoke at idle immediately, or did it get worse after letting it idle awhile? Did u pinch off pcv and drive awhile to see if it abated? If oil film was fairly pronounced and ever present in the intake, I d say its a ring upside down. Guide smoke is just hard to visibly get on a continuous idle, although it really can burn thru alot of oil while driving. cya

 

[ThikStik]

The question now for any readers is: Have they ever seen strong oil films inside intake , and did leaking valves guides ever cause this? I do know for sure that an upside down ring does cause this.

 

[TurboBuRick]

The question now for any readers is: Have they ever seen strong oil films inside intake , and did leaking valves guides ever cause this? I do know for sure that an upside down ring does cause this.

Your saying an upsidedown ring on a piston would cause oil in the intake?

 

[obrut]

I did block off the pvc and that made no change. I did install the catch can and that made no change that i saw. The car would puff on start up and then there would be very light smoke at idle. To see it i would have to kneel down and look up at the end of the pipe, if that makes sense. It wouldn't smoke a lot at idle but just a very small steady amount. The oil in the intake was just a film which i was 99% sure came from the pvc.

I went to the machine shop today. the guy said that the guides seem to be a little worn but are not that bad. He did see the oil in the bowl area and said that cutting the guides and installing seals would stop this. I asked him if he could mill them to make sure they were flat. He measured the head and said they were past the minimum limit. I had another set of heads with me that measured the same and he pulled one off of his shelf and that measured the same. So either the spec he has is wrong or all of the heads had been milled to much. I told him that i wanted to know before doing any work on them. So i have the heads in my garage right now. I need to find the min/max spec for the heads before doing anything. He also said that the HV oil pump could be my problem and that i'm getting to much oil up top and its just soaking the valves and eventually running down the guides. I also think i might pull my pistons and see if the oil ring is backwards while its apart. I've never done it before, am i going to run into any problems? Is it pretty easy to do?

 

[Jerryl]

......... the guy said that the guides seem to be a little worn but are not that bad. .......... He also said that the HV oil pump could be my problem and that i'm getting to much oil up top and its just soaking the valves and eventually running down the guides. ........

See link
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/ge...ll-760-high-volume-oil-pump-hvop-effects.html

 

[obrut]

ya i saw that, infact if you look at the second one down my names on it.

 

[obrut]

the machine shop called me and said that the measurement was wrong. So that means my heads are fine. The price is going to be $360 for 12 new iron guides, six new exhaust valves, cutting the guides for exhaust seals, hot tank/mag the heads, surface, 3 angle valve job, clean all bolt holes, and assemble the heads. I still don't want to put exhaust seals on them but it looks like champion and others use them on there heads. I really wish i would have changed oil pumps before i pulled the engine to see if that was my problem but whats done is done. I have the heads off so i might as well have them done again.

The oil ring up side down is another thing that i'm getting 50/50 on. Some people are telling me if an oil ring was up side down that i would see some type of sign with the heads off. Like a cylinder that would look different then the rest. Other are saying that this is my smoking problem at idle.

Question; if i took the oil pan off and flipped the motor over, rotated the engine so the piston was at the bottom of the cylinder would i be able to tell if the ring is backwards?

Thanks again for the help
Tim

 

[TurboBuRick]

the machine shop called me and said that the measurement was wrong. So that means my heads are fine. The price is going to be $360 for 12 new iron guides, six new exhaust valves, cutting the guides for exhaust seals, hot tank/mag the heads, surface, 3 angle valve job, clean all bolt holes, and assemble the heads. I still don't want to put exhaust seals on them but it looks like champion and others use them on there heads. I really wish i would have changed oil pumps before i pulled the engine to see if that was my problem but whats done is done. I have the heads off so i might as well have them done again.

The oil ring up side down is another thing that i'm getting 50/50 on. Some people are telling me if an oil ring was up side down that i would see some type of sign with the heads off. Like a cylinder that would look different then the rest. Other are saying that this is my smoking problem at idle.

Question; if i took the oil pan off and flipped the motor over, rotated the engine so the piston was at the bottom of the cylinder would i be able to tell if the ring is backwards?

Thanks again for the help
Tim

If you have it that far just pull it apart. You can have it all out in about 30 minuites. Last thing you want to do is play guessing games. You can check the crank and bearings too.

 

[QUIP'6']

too many theory's one right answer there is no ring problem here its all in the heads i am not blind and if i were i could still see all that oil in the exhaust valves guides. people theory that the exhaust side has positive pressure and doesnt draw oil in like an intake valve but there wrong when the valve opens to expell gasses it creates a vortex and draws oil in from the guide!!!! so i think that if you have more thatn .002 and removed the cups from springs you are going to have smoking issues. i had .002 and removed the cups and when i took off my heads they were all covered with oil in the guide and actually running out the exhaust valve from sitting over night. mine would smoke everytime you started it up after letting sit for 3 or more minutes

 

[obrut]

I guess another question would be are we having these problems because we are removing the cups after rebuilds? What are those cups intended purpose?

 

[TurboBuRick]

Ok, Here is my $0.02.

Compression testing does not always tell the whole story. Leakdown and a tear-down usually do.

The pics are not very clear but if the “wet combustion chamber” coincides with the scored cylinder, it is “no bueno”. Pull the piston as you most likely have a broken ring which broke during assembly 4 years ago. Deglaze the bore, make sure it cleans up, verify the clearances, install new rings, break it in right.

Now, the other cylinders smoking is another issue.
If the rings in one is broke from previous rebuild, the other rings may not be installed correctly and you may have some issues there as well.

One cylinder (if bad enough) can also effect the others through the EGR. Smoke from the exhaust is re-circulated through the EGR/intake ……… yadi yada.

I would take this advice. Your half way there.

 

[QUIP'6']

how can this be from rings Yahoo! Photos - tpalmisano@sbcglobal.net's Photos - valves it doesnt take a scientist this has been going on from day one. i will be getting my heads back this week and i am dying to post results good or bad

 

[obrut]

so does anyone know what the cups were for on the valve springs when the heads are stock?

 

[Jerryl]

so does anyone know what the cups were for on the valve springs when the heads are stock?

My "SWAG" is "harmonics dampening" since there was no innner spring.

 

[obrut]

Well what i would really like to do is get the heads done and put the car back together and see what happens. If i still have a smoking problem then i will remove the HV oil pump. If i still have a problem after that then i will try gas and a match, i've heard that fixes everything

 

[Turbo1dr]

This is what I found on my car(s) when I had a smoking problem at idle. On my TTA and GN1's on my Malibu, I found that when the car started it DID NOT smoke but after it idles for a while it did. I knew the turbo wasn't bad so I ruled that out. Further inspection reveiled a couple of exhaust valve stem seals had came loose and was riding up on the valve stem. I also noticed there was oil leaking out of the exhaust header tubes between the heads and headers but only on those cylinders where the seals were riding up. I reinstalled the valve stem seals and it quit smoking. My conclusion was the seal was acting like a "toilet plunger" as the valve was going up and down and was pushing the oil down the valve stem as the engine was running. Sounds crazy I know, but I have had this happen more than once and on different cars so I know that had to be the problem. The cause of the problem, IMO, is once you get into boost there's a lot of pre-turbo exhaust pressure that actually pushed the valve stem seals off the guide which causes the problem. The cure for me was to make sure the guides were not worn AND make sure the seals fit VERY tight or glue them down!

So in conclusion, I'd first check to see if there's oil leakage below the exhaust header tubes on each cylinder. (make sure your valve covers are NOT leaking making it look like it's leaking there). Then check the seals if you have them.

 

[QUIP'6']

This is what I found on my car(s) when I had a smoking problem at idle. On my TTA and GN1's on my Malibu, I found that when the car started it DID NOT smoke but after it idles for a while it did. I knew the turbo wasn't bad so I ruled that out. Further inspection reveiled a couple of exhaust valve stem seals had came loose and was riding up on the valve stem. I also noticed there was oil leaking out of the exhaust header tubes between the heads and headers but only on those cylinders where the seals were riding up. I reinstalled the valve stem seals and it quit smoking. My conclusion was the seal was acting like a "toilet plunger" as the valve was going up and down and was pushing the oil down the valve stem as the engine was running. Sounds crazy I know, but I have had this happen more than once and on different cars so I know that had to be the problem. The cause of the problem, IMO, is once you get into boost there's a lot of pre-turbo exhaust pressure that actually pushed the valve stem seals off the guide which causes the problem. The cure for me was to make sure the guides were not worn AND make sure the seals fit VERY tight or glue them down!

So in conclusion, I'd first check to see if there's oil leakage below the exhaust header tubes on each cylinder. (make sure your valve covers are NOT leaking making it look like it's leaking there). Then check the seals if you have them.

mine was leaking out the heads between the header and head too

 

[JeffG]

This is what I found on my car(s) when I had a smoking problem at idle. On my TTA and GN1's on my Malibu, I found that when the car started it DID NOT smoke but after it idles for a while it did. I knew the turbo wasn't bad so I ruled that out. Further inspection reveiled a couple of exhaust valve stem seals had came loose and was riding up on the valve stem. I also noticed there was oil leaking out of the exhaust header tubes between the heads and headers but only on those cylinders where the seals were riding up. I reinstalled the valve stem seals and it quit smoking. My conclusion was the seal was acting like a "toilet plunger" as the valve was going up and down and was pushing the oil down the valve stem as the engine was running. Sounds crazy I know, but I have had this happen more than once and on different cars so I know that had to be the problem. The cause of the problem, IMO, is once you get into boost there's a lot of pre-turbo exhaust pressure that actually pushed the valve stem seals off the guide which causes the problem. The cure for me was to make sure the guides were not worn AND make sure the seals fit VERY tight or glue them down!

Some have suggested to superglue the seals down because of this very reason.