?s about my TA buildup.Suggestions?

[Larry]

Originally posted by John Wilde
I good set up Stage 2s wil be in the 340 CFM range.
Some are a little higher.

What is the big difference between a ported set of Champion heads / T/A heads and the Stage II heads. How could there be such a difference? One would think, if your going to go thru all of the trouble of designing new heads that at least they would flow similar or at least close to stage II heads. What am I missing here. Are they from some other planet or something? I would not think they would be that hard to copy. Maybe, the Stage II heads are not compatable to bolt ons that aftermarket heads are? Sure would be interested in hearing this explanation. Larry

 

[Cheeseburger]

The big difference is $$$$
With stage 2 heads you need to buy headers/efi intake/upper plenum and so on.
Stock type headers/intake do not work.

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Larry
What is the big difference between a ported set of Champion heads / T/A heads and the Stage II heads. How could there be such a difference? One would think, if your going to go thru all of the trouble of designing new heads that at least they would flow similar or at least close to stage II heads. What am I missing here. Are they from some other planet or something? I would not think they would be that hard to copy. Maybe, the Stage II heads are not compatable to bolt ons that aftermarket heads are? Sure would be interested in hearing this explanation. Larry

Well, ya, they sorta are from another planet. If you ever get a chance to see the S2 heads up close and personal, you'll see why they flow so much more than anything you can get your hands on.
Huge valves, massive ports (even unported), and totally different port design. The intake and exhaust ports are also MUCH higher on the head than "stockish" design (besides being huge).

 

[sixgun86gn]

Melvin,I see you have only a few posts there.Would it be possible for you to e-mail me some pics and tell me about them?Thanks bud,no offence just got to be careful with a large purchase here.

 

[Reggie West]

The Stage 2 heads have a couple of advantages and disadvantages.

The Stage 2 heads flow more air than anything else. They dont have the leak and cracking problems some others do. With a 74 twin bb turbo I saw a motor put down 750 hp to the wheels no sweat and that was at 28 psi.


The downside is you need headers to work with them. You have to modify a stock manifold, or a 4 barrel conversion. It can be done for a reasonable price.

For what you are doing, you will spend that amount of money either way. I would suggest using the Stage heads you wont be disappointed with them at all.


The combo Lou Czarnota used was a Stage block 272 ci, Stage heads ported, 4bbl intake converted, headers were a custom job, ( Go with ATR ) the cam he used was a 236 roller, 590 lift ? ( may have been more) and the LSA was 110.

Motor would spin up to 7500 all day with no complaints. Boost was instant .

Maybe he will see this and corect me. I was about 2 shakes away from buying a TA block and doing the exact same thing you are right now.

Good luck

 

[sixgun86gn]

I have a stage 2 carb intake that I plan on having converted and the ATR headers are a given.I don't see much problem with going to the stage heads.Carb stage 2 intakes are all over the place for $100 or so.

 

[John Wilde]

Guys,

I have heard that the ATR Headers might give valve cover access issues with turbos PT-88 and up! If you are not adjusting your valves that often it may not be a problem. Can some one chime in with their experience on this matter?

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Cheeseburger
The big difference is $$$$
With stage 2 heads you need to buy headers/efi intake/upper plenum and so on.
Stock type headers/intake do not work.

It's really not that much of a difference in price when you add up what you get and what you really want to have. Professionally porting a stock intake and installing larger throttle body isn’t all that much cheaper than converting a $100 4-bbl intake for EFI and getting an upper plenum. The stock stage II 4-bbl intake runners are HUGE and match nicely to the stage head. Remember, out-of-the-box un-ported stage II heads flow like 290. That's not too bad and can produce some really good power untouched. If you want to port them they easily go over 300.

Also, regarding headers. Stage II's use a 1 7/8" header, much bigger than the stock 1.5" ones. You cant' get 1 7/8" headers for stock heads without having them custom made, now you're talking more than the usually 1.5" stock style header everyone sells and more than the ATR stage II headers. I think Cal Hartline had a bunch of 1 7/8" headers made up for stock style heads, they sold almost immediately.

Also, with the stage heads, you can port them and fit valves as large as 2.09" intakes. Like someone else said, if you ever get to see a set of stage heads you'll know why the flow so well. Looking down the intake runners is like looking down a funnel, straight shot at the valve, same with the exhausts.

Regarding why TTA and Champion would make a stock style head that doesn't rival the stage heads, it's economics. Stage heads are not for everyone and won't work on a stock motor. The Champion head and TTA castings will work on a stock block. There are way more applications for a head that will work on a stock block AND stage motor than there are for only a stage block.

Yes, a stage head will go 7's and I'm sure eventually into the 6's (not taking into consideration that Buddy was already there). Remember, Champion heads are already into the 8's and I'm sure will eventually be in the 7's someday. I'm sure the TTA's are going to be at least equal to the Champion heads. Neither are slouches!

Hope this helps,
Art.

 

[Larry]

Thanks Art- Very clear. Larry

 

[Cheeseburger]

Art, i assumed Larry was all set up and ready to go with a stock style intake,kb headers, and new ta alum heads.............me bad.

 

[Nick Micale]

Originally posted by John Wilde
.... I have heard that the ATR Headers might give valve cover access issues with turbos PT-88 and up! If you are not adjusting your valves that often it may not be a problem. Can some one chime in with their experience on this matter?

The stage II ATR headers I am installing on a customer's car have been a gigantic nightmare.

Leaks everywhere including at the heads, crossover does not even fit, real SOB to install and tighten bolts. Did you say remove VC's for adjusting valves? Another fun job.

They only would make them with a 4-bolt flange so a 3-bolt conversion was needed. There must be a better way?

Another area often overlooked in using stage II heads is that it requires a different cam blank and lifters than stock-type heads as well as special rockers.

 

[Cheeseburger]

Originally posted by Nick Micale
The stage II ATR headers I am installing on a customer's car have been a gigantic nightmare.

Leaks everywhere including at the heads, crossover does not even fit, real SOB to install and tighten bolts.

Gee there's a surprise!
I bet if you call ATR they will say "We have never heard of this problem before".

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Cheeseburger

Originally posted by Nick Micale
The stage II ATR headers I am installing on a customer's car have been a gigantic nightmare.

Leaks everywhere including at the heads, crossover does not even fit, real SOB to install and tighten bolts.

Gee there's a surprise!
I bet if you call ATR they will say "We have never heard of this problem before".

Yeah, I liken ATR to Kenne Bell in that once they develop something they never change it based on customer feedback. Seems once the money is spent and the initial development is done, they don't want to change anything. Not like Champion or TA, that's for sure....

 

[Mac in SD]

Originally posted by Cheeseburger

Originally posted by Nick Micale
The stage II ATR headers I am installing on a customer's car have been a gigantic nightmare.

Leaks everywhere including at the heads, crossover does not even fit, real SOB to install and tighten bolts.

Gee there's a surprise!
I bet if you call ATR they will say "We have never heard of this problem before".

LMAO. Ditto on my ATR S2 cross-over. Had to have it tweaked, as well as trimmed. Subsequently, the little support "stem" weld for the crossover connection on the pax-side header cracked leading to a nice leak. Unreachable in the car, so the header had to come off, which meant the engine had to come out. OTOH, I haven't had problems with valve cover removal (gotta have center-bolts, not perimeters, though.)

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Nick Micale


<snip>

Another area often overlooked in using stage II heads is that it requires a different cam blank and lifters than stock-type heads as well as special rockers.

I'm a little confused. Why would SII heads require a different cam blank and lifters?

The block might require such changes (stage II blocks have much wider cam bearing journals). But why would heads dictate such changes.

 

[Philv6]

Valve location, stock head has an EX,IN,IN,EX,IN,EX. Stage II heads have IN,EX,IN,EX,IN,EX

IN=intake
EX=exhaust

 

[John Wilde]

Dave,

The ports on the stock type heads are asymetical.
The ports on the stage head are symetrical.

 

[Nick Micale]

Originally posted by TurboDave
I'm a little confused. Why would SII heads require a different cam blank and lifters?

The block might require such changes (stage II blocks have much wider cam bearing journals). But why would heads dictate such changes.

Because the valves are in different locations than stock!

 

[Larry]

Man- I went to school on this subject Really interesting, Thanks guys Larry

 

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by Nick Micale
Because the valves are in different locations than stock!

Oh, come on Nick, that's just a minor detail. Just need to use those special extra long and bent pushrods to match the correct lobe up with the correct valve. Minor details I tell ya!