rod bearing failure 2 times

[turbo john FL]

wanted to know if anyone has had problems with rod bearing failure on there cars . or a problem with resizing rods and getting them to repeat size after resizing.
i had my motor done 2 times buy a supposed competent machine shop . first time aprox. 700 miles and # 3 rod bearing is wiped out completly and motor knocking loud as hell, guy takes motor and reassembles again and resizes again cleans everything out new bearings etc. turns crank . under 300 miles # 6 rod bearing goes out obvios this guy does not know what the f#@k he is doing. tells me tough s#@T it is a race motor . no warranty after i told him i had someone else take it apart to give me there opinion . # 6 is down well into the copper and naturally has damaged all other bearings as well as ruined crank.also after telling him i would get a lawyer and file a complaint with BBB AND CONSUMER AFFAIRS .HE HAS A DEPUTY GIVE ME A TRESSPASS WARNING SO I CAN NOT COME BACK AND COMPLAIN. WHAT A SCUM BAG.
well had to vent a little. but has there been any problems with resizing the rods. also i am using arp bolts . and wondered if it was a problem with these


thanks for any input

 

[Nick Micale]

[........
well had to vent a little. but has there been any problems with resizing the rods. also i am using arp bolts . and wondered if it was a problem with these.

thanks for any input [/B]

Resizing rods on a Buick turbo engine is one of the most critical items in building a short block. They do NOT repeat well, and may have to be done a few times to get them correct. The use of ARP rod bolt requires the rods to be properly prepared for them.

Could be a possible oiling problem but an expert "reading" and examining the bearings could tell.

 

[750H.P.V6]

John,

It's true that the stock rods don't resize well. The more out of round they are to start with the worse they are dimensionally once they are resized. On occasion you can measure a rod that has been resized, loosen the bolts, retorque them and watch it go out of round.

That being said I would question the engine installation and break in also. Was the engine oil cooler in the radiator replaced after the first engine failure? Did they prime the motor prior to starting it or just fire it up? What kind of clearances were used in the engine?

Neal

 

[SPOOLN]

Check and Recheck

I wonder what the clearence was on the rod bearings also if the motor was primed right before start up. Most of all was the oil cooler by passed because it could've been contaminated. At this point i would buy new rods and crank and have the engine completely flushed/cleaned plus by pass the oil cooler. It takes a while for the oil pump to prime if it has been packed with vasoline. That time upon crank up could've been dry thus ruining the bearings. Sorry to this happen to you.

 

[turbo john FL]

as far as clearences go . not sure what they actually were. but was told i believe 0015-002 for the bearing clearances. i actually installed motor and started up both times using eos in the mix as suggested by the gsca club guys. and then primed the motor by taking off oil line adding oil and priming pump with the chevy priming tool and drill directly off the oil pump shaft until i got full oil pressure showing on my gauge. then turned motor over by hand at aprox. quarter turns .and again primed it up to pressure . was told this would force a wedge of oil in all bearing surfaces and would be the most safe way to pre prime engine.
as far as resizing then what is the solution on the rods to avoid this if they are a known problem for resizing??

] thanks for all help here guys i am pulling what little hair i have out over this JOHN

 

[turbo john FL]

forgot to ask nick
what is involved with preparing the rods for the arp bolts to be used?? i am just hoping to get this done and hopefully the right way this time.i have a crank that was fresh turned to 10/10 ready to go . this last time wasted the crank i had wich was uncut
thanks for any help or suggestions here

JOHN

 

[Nick Micale]

John, I suggest you call TA Performance and discuss your rod situation. They have been dealing with the "rod" situation from early Buick V-8 and have lots of experience in this area. They might even supply you a set of rods already done or do yours?

Phone no. 480-922-6807.

 

[turbo john FL]

thanks for the heads up on that nick , i will give them a call and see what they say
john

 

[turbosam6]

Originally posted by turbo john FL
as far as clearences go . not sure what they actually were. but was told i believe 0015-002 for the bearing clearances. i actually installed motor and started up both times using eos in the mix as suggested by the gsca club guys. and then primed the motor by taking off oil line adding oil and priming pump with the chevy priming tool and drill directly off the oil pump shaft until i got full oil pressure showing on my gauge. then turned motor over by hand at aprox. quarter turns .and again primed it up to pressure . was told this would force a wedge of oil in all bearing surfaces and would be the most safe way to pre prime engine.
as far as resizing then what is the solution on the rods to avoid this if they are a known problem for resizing??

] thanks for all help here guys i am pulling what little hair i have out over this JOHN

What "oil line" are you taking off? I hope you aren't reusing the factory oil cooler.

 

[turbo john FL]

turbosams
yes i have reused the factory oil cooler after flushing it out via the lines. what are my options??
thanks john

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by turbo john FL
wanted to know if anyone has had problems with rod bearing failure on there cars . or a problem with resizing rods and getting them to repeat size after resizing.
i had my motor done 2 times buy a supposed competent machine shop . first time aprox. 700 miles and # 3 rod bearing is wiped out completly and motor knocking loud as hell, guy takes motor and reassembles again and resizes again cleans everything out new bearings etc. turns crank . under 300 miles # 6 rod bearing goes out
thanks for any input

How did the brg fail? Which shell failed? Upper or lower, or both? Was it worn evenly across the shell, or was one side worn more than the other?

 

[frankg]

Alot of problems people have with the rods not repeating are associated with improper torque procedures. The proper way to torque a rod bolt is with a rod bolt stretch tool NOT a torque wrench. This is the only way to 100% duplicate the tightness of the bolts. Even just 5 lbs off and the rods could show out of round. The person reconditioning the rod and the assembler must both do it this way or it will not be 100%. I can do a set for you if you would like but you or your assembler must have the correct tool also when assembling. You can also have your bearings coated which will save them if you ever lose some oil psi!! Thanks,Frank

 

[turbosam6]

Originally posted by turbo john FL
turbosams
yes i have reused the factory oil cooler after flushing it out via the lines. what are my options??
thanks john

Jesus Christ, are all you guys blind???


NO, DO NOT reuse the oil cooler. It will have bearing material in it that will circulate into the new motor. It is NOT flushable. Either delete it or have it replaced, or use an aftermarket oil cooler like I do.

 

[turbolou]

reply

All these suggestions are critical. But here is what I found the hard way.When a cast crank is turned you remove the hardness.
Buicks seem to be particularly bad on this. Research a good crank shop in your area that knows about process's that can retreat the crank such as nitradeing or cool case, Also start up is critical.You must have the cam sensor set right, Fuel pressure, oiling system primed, A strong battery, In other words the engine should be set to fire without over cranking & wipeing off the prelube. Once started run @ 2500 or so rpm for 20 min. Don't let it idle till then. I also have had good results useing Torco assm lube & yes by all means bypass the oil cooler since they are no longer available & can't be replaced or cleaned once debris gets in..Just use Synthetic oil because it will tolerate extra heat with out breakdown. What wieght oil to run is dictated by what clearences you choose. 002 mains & 0015 on the rods is what I shoot for. Replace the front cover also. Especially if debris has went through it. It's the major part of the oiling system. If you want to be a sucsessful engine builder you can't pay enough atten. to detail. I'm sure some of the veterans here will back me up on this & hope this helps.

 

[turbo john FL]

turbo jim
the first time the bearing was number 3 ros, this last time was # 6 that failed. the beari ng on number 6 was worn evenly both sides well into the copper and then some . the rest of the rods look like damage from debris.

also thanks for the input here everyone.but i have a question that is still un answered. does anything have to be done to the rods to use the arp bolts. i understand the need to sesize properly . bolt is there any work that needs to be done to make sure the ARP bolts seat corrctl or go into the caps , etc ??

thanks everyone.
JOHN

 

[slamming 6]

turbo john what machine shop to stay from???.

 

[gofstbuick]

Originally posted by turbo john FL
as far as clearences go . not sure what they actually were. but was told i believe 0015-002 for the bearing clearances. JOHN

Sorry to hear of your troubles. If you're not sure, then who did the measuring? Did you do the assembly work and not verify the measurements? If so, then some of the fault is on you. I used almost a whole can of AC flush though my oil cooler prior to firing up my engine and have not had a spun bearing issue. Did you install the rod caps and did you use extra care bringing the rod to the crank and seating the cap on the rod? Regarding the use of ARP rod bolts, the rods require resizing for the bolts. Did the machinist provide you with a torque spec for the re-sized rods? Mine did and I torqued to his specification. Another question, were the rods facing the right direction?

 

[turbo john FL]

gofstbuick
no i did not assemble the motor the machine shop did all the work . resizing rods , new pistons, fresh crank, line bore for the billet center caps, etc. as well as balance the motor.
they did the assembly of the short block so all clearencing is on them .i actually just left a machine shop today which the owner showed me how the rods were not properly fitted for the arp bolts.

 

[S2V6RACER]

Sorry for your trouble. This engine shop probably just uses plastiguage too for his assembly work and does not have a dial indicator in his building.

 

[Bad as L]

The rod resizing opperation starts with cutting the cap or rod or both at the parting line and this is were the trouble starts.

I have have seen some extremely bad work in this area and it starts with the grinding machine that they use to cut the parting line. Some of those old machines probably haven't had the grinding wheel redressed since the day they were new and they couldn't cut a flat surface if they tried, not to mention the black smith running the machine. I have pulled apart freshly machined parts and checked them with an indicator on a surface plate and seen angled surfaces as much as .002/.003 in less than 3/4" distance. This is what causes the rod bolt to have such an effect on the bore size.

Also when you install the ARP bolts they have a huge under head radius that has to be clearanced for. If this detail work is done right and the parting line surfaces are flat the rod should stay round when torqued.

Most shops will never take the time to do this right because it does take a huge amount of time to detail this.
Dale