Precision TE-60-1 rebuilt with Garrett BB center section cartridge smoking

[JimP]

I have an oil burning issue which is not there with my old TE-60-1 journal bearing turbo. Since I had 2 of these turbo's I had one retro fitted with a brand new Garrett ball bearing center section cartridge, and p-trim wheel. The car pulls like a freight train, the spool is instantaneous, 0-22 psi in about second on the t-brake.

The issue I have is blue smoke out the exhaust, I removed the turbo, brought it back to my source, sure enough there was oil making it's way past the seal into the exhaust side, not much but it was wet ( I know a little oil can make a lot of smoke). What he did find is that the housing bolts were pretty loose too (my fault), no blade contact etc.... no thrust or lateral shaft play.

Being the great guy he is, he cracked open a brand new turbo, I saw it with my own eyes, both wheels, cartridge etc.....all new, he installed the guts in my turbo using only the housings, The turbo was clocked properly, all bolts torqued to spec, no shaft play, lateral or thrust.....

Fast forward, I put this unit on the car and I still have a lot of exhaust smoke!!!! I have eliminated the pcv, rings, oil in the intake (as sources of oil) the plugs are clean. I looked in the bell (exhaust side) and I see oil in there again. I confirmed there is an oil feed restrictor in the feed line, my oil pressure at idle cold is 60 psi, hot it goes to 20 psi, and the up about 10 psi per 1,000 rpm. There was so little oil on the cartridge that was replaced, that I doubt I have residual oil in the exhaust, I drove the car about 15 minutes and I still get smoke, mostly at idle or if I rev it a bit once the car is warmed up.

Anyone else having issues with this BB turbo cartridge or similar, did I get a another dud? Any suggestions please, I need to get it sorted out, I'm considering going back to a journal bearing. Do I keep driving it and see if it clears up?

 

[bison]

I've used many Garrett t3/t4 ball bearing cartridges and they all are of very consistent quality and don't have smoking issues. I haven't found a major defect on one yet. The sealing ring bores are always nice and the rings are of acceptable quality. With the amount of oil entering the cartridge which is much less than any journal bearing cartridge there should be nothing entering the exhaust or the compressor housing. Oil drain back is critical on any turbo. Its possible that there is a restriction in the oil return. What return line is being used? Typically I use a different ex sealing ring and VSR balance all ball bearing turbos. I can tell upon tear down if the ex ring was likely an issue or not. The sealing ring bore is easily checked for out of round or pitting which could compromise the rings ability to seal. Did he mention that the sealing ring had lost tension? I've had loose ex guides leak oil directly into the ex ports and look like it was raw oil from the turbo when it wasn't. Something else to take a look at.


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[JimP]

Hi Bison, I just put this one on, only took a small drive, 15 miles maybe, it was new out of the box. As for the one he removed, he didn't have the chance to examine it yet however as soon as he did he would let me know. He said the same about the Garett, very few issues and he rebuilds many turbos. I used him as he was recommended locally, otherwise I would have sent a package your way.

For return line I am using stock appearing one from G-Body parts (flexible), it looked clean and unrestricted. The oil I am seeing looks like clean oil, it is misting the exhaust housing (looks wet), can you elaborate on the loose ex guides, and I will have a look.

I've gotten pretty good at removing this and putting it back on, I have a decent pte-54 I can put on that I know was good, at least the car will be mobile.

 

[bison]

Post pics of installed return line and also the ends where the fittings are.


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[bison]

Loose ex guide and oil able to enter the ex directly.

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[JimP]

Post pics of installed return line and also the ends where the fittings are.


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OK I will do that ASAP!

 

[JimP]

Feed line and drain lines.

 

[bison]

Your drain back slope is inadequate. If also like to see the size of the return lines inside diameter at it's smallest point. Another thing I forgot to mention is I switch out backplates on the ball bearing cartridges. I use an anodized aluminum backplate that is light and doesn't oxidize


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[JimP]

Ok Thanks Bison, I will take better photos tomorrow, it's pretty easy to take off the drain line. Any ideas how to improve the slope?
This is the drain back line I have. The feed line is a 4AN reverse compression, (I thought that it might be too much line Feed wise) never considered the slope of the drain back line. It's length is fixed so I may have to get something made up to increase the slope.

Here is a better pic of the feed line as well.

Thanks for the help and your time so far!

 

[bison]

The feed line doesn't matter. Id go back to the stock return line


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[JimP]

Hi Bison, it's raining cats and dogs here today, car is outside under a cover presently, hopefully it clears up I'll take off return line I have on there and get some measurements ASAP.

I searched every box I had and don't have the stock return line, I think I'll get this unit as it will be better at draining, no sections parallel to the ground. Looks like it may be a b#&$^ to install but if it gets me going it's worth it.

Do you think there is any chance I have damaged anything (seal wise)? As I mentioned unit was brand new.

 

[bison]

I'd verify the inside diameter of those fittings. I personally wouldn't use it if the inside is smaller than stock at any point. There's no way to damage the sealing rings with oil. They are non positive piston ring style carbon steel rings. They don't just wear out or go bad for no reason either. 99% or more of the smoking issues I've seen that weren't because of failed internal components were because of restricted drain back.


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[JimP]

Fantastic, I was afraid I may have damaged something. I am pretty confident it is an issue with oil drainage now. I'll have some time tomorrow to hit up a hydraulic shop where a friend works (I'm also borrowing a stock very beat up return line) for reference. He stated he likes to use the aeroquip socket less line as it has the biggest inner diameter, it's smooth for better drainage and it's some what flexible.

I'll keep you posted, thanks again!!!

 

[JimP]

Bison,

I just got the car back home, I wasn't able to post photos but we ended up using two 45 degree fittings one at the block, one at the flange beneath the turbo (too dark for pics right now but I have a good straight slope into the block), the line is a stiff rubber socket-less airquip . The drain hose is pretty good inner diameter 10AN, I can stick my index finger into it, no bends, kins, just a straight shot.

I had some smoke upon initial warm up, but I could see oil around the exhaust side, it smoked for a while but it looks like it may have cleared up, by the time I got the car home, I didn't smell anything. I will advise tomorrow weather permitting and I will post a couple of pictures. It's not pretty, but it may have worked.

 

[bison]

Bison,

I just got the car back home, I wasn't able to post photos but we ended up using two 45 degree fittings one at the block, one at the flange beneath the turbo (too dark for pics right now but I have a good straight slope into the block), the line is a stiff rubber socket-less airquip . The drain hose is pretty good inner diameter 10AN, I can stick my index finger into it, no bends, kins, just a straight shot.

I had some smoke upon initial warm up, but I could see oil around the exhaust side, it smoked for a while but it looks like it may have cleared up, by the time I got the car home, I didn't smell anything. I will advise tomorrow weather permitting and I will post a couple of pictures. It's not pretty, but it may have worked.

Take it for a couple 5 second blasts. That'll burn any residual oil out.


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[JimP]

Well... hate to say it but I still have a smoking issue, got up very early before my shift today, dropped the down pipe and I can see oil which has slung around the exhaust turbine housing. I took it for a few good blasts last night. (It was too dark to take pictures) but I'm certain there is great drainage, I can almost get my thumb in the line no kinks etc. Luckily today I am working days, I can swap a known good 54 turbo (which does not spool well on my car due to waste gate hole having been enlarged too much. This is turbo #2. and I wouldn't bet that two units could be bad back to back but I see oil on exhaust side.

I'll post pics when I get back home and keep you posted! I also developed a rattle that is hard to pinpoint, going to check converter bolts first (Fingers crossed).

 

[bison]

Well... hate to say it but I still have a smoking issue, got up very early before my shift today, dropped the down pipe and I can see oil which has slung around the exhaust turbine housing. I took it for a few good blasts last night. (It was too dark to take pictures) but I'm certain there is great drainage, I can almost get my thumb in the line no kinks etc. Luckily today I am working days, I can swap a known good 54 turbo (which does not spool well on my car due to waste gate hole having been enlarged too much. This is turbo #2. and I wouldn't bet that two units could be bad back to back but I see oil on exhaust side.

I'll post pics when I get back home and keep you posted! I also developed a rattle that is hard to pinpoint, going to check converter bolts first (Fingers crossed).

What was the condition of the old unit? What was found with the sealing ring bore and ring?


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[JimP]

What was the condition of the old unit? What was found with the sealing ring bore and ring?


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I'm waiting to hear about the unit which came off the car last Friday, he replaced it with this one (Both were new units), I'll advise as soon as I find out, this has me stumped. Nothing like a good mystery.

 

[bison]

I'm waiting to hear about the unit which came off the car last Friday, he replaced it with this one (Both were new units), I'll advise as soon as I find out, this has me stumped. Nothing like a good mystery.

New doesn't always mean good.


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[JimP]

Bison,

Just a heads up as I hate seeing threads where issues are brought up and we never hear the final result. I got a call from my turbo supplier, there were no issues with the turbo he replaced for me initially (I have same issue with this new unit) I'm dropping off my car at their shop and they will go from there. I'll post what happens next in case others are experiencing the same problem. One thing I did notice, using a different known good oil pressure gauge, I have 80 psi at cold idle, my vdo dash shows 60 psi, warm idle vdo shows between 30-35. They seem to think too much oil supply..... we'll see I put on my old JB turbo and no smoking issue.