Optimum...Innovate/Gen7

[ski_dwn_it]

Guys,

What are the optimum setting in the innovate WB and gen 7s to make these things optimized for one another.

What I am getting at is what are the sample rates and sensor delays that most find are best suited for one other.

Here is what is happening with my car. The fuel seems to occilate from lean to rich and back and forth.

After a shift it does rich, then the ECM corrects too much and it them goes lean and by the end of the gear its right where I want it.

I have about a 500ms delay in the wb sensor now.

Car needs completely retuned now that my DFI unit was repaired....before it must have been way out to lunch and I had tuned around all the problems it had....now I am back to square one.

This probably REALLY is present off the line. Car goes to way extremes and leave like a snail compared to last year 1.48 best I could get yesterday compared to 1.37....and then feels like it lays over on the correction and them takes off again.

How do you guys tune your launches.....Do you use the AE tables or just the VE tables. My car doesn't have a bog or anything, just doesn't feel as "snappy" as it used to. Before it used to rip off your head on the launches, now its like taking out with grandma driving.

Bad thing is - its too hard to tune anywhere but the strip since it just blows the tire off even in the "slow" condition.......

Any thoughts or advice.


One last thing, any of you guys run with an open exhaust? I did last year but had to turn off all the correction at WOT, car ran great but that was after I got all the above straightened out.....seemed easier last year than this year.....now it seems all hosed up. My wb is about 10" up in the collector after I bolt up the turn downs.

Thanks...

 

[norbs]

Well, 10" from the collector is no good at all you need at least 2 feet" of tubing after the 02. i would turn off the closed loop for now until you get that fixed. What settings do you have the response speed set in the lm-1 programmer? It should be 1/12 second no faster

 

[ski_dwn_it]

Well, 10" from the collector is no good at all you need at least 2 feet" of tubing after the 02. i would turn off the closed loop for now until you get that fixed. What settings do you have the response speed set in the lm-1 programmer? It should be 1/12 second no faster

GOT BIGGER problems now.......godd-amn DFI box flooded/hydrolocked my motor again today!!! This is less than 1wk since they just repaired the box with new circuit boards to correct the problem..........

Thanks for the information norbs.......but I am probably going to be going a different route real soon.......hope they keep their professionalism and agree a replacement unit is now is order...........my patients are going thin.....very thin!!!!

I have now missed nearly 2/3 of the racing season due to these problems and fears of using the unit.........

 

[norbs]

Thats not good news, but maybe you have a short somewhere? There is something wrong for this to happen twice? I would not accept that box back but instread a brand new one only.

 

[aDFIguy]

Ski,

Do you have a 16-volt battery/ignition system on your car?

 

[ski_dwn_it]

Ski,

Do you have a 16-volt battery/ignition system on your car?

Norbs I hear you..............

No 16v anything....standard 12v system............I even monitored the alternator voltage right off the alternator with my fluke, at the stock power distribution area, off the battery everything the day before the race.....it never exceeded 14volts, most of the time it was a steady 13-13.5 volts. No spikes NOTHING. Then I go out to start it yesterday to move the car out of the garage to sweep, and crank crank crank crank crank.........you gotta me kidding me! Check voltage on my battery via digital dash, 11.8volts after several attempts to start.......fire up the laptop and try to connect.......unable to open port........key was on during this naturally for about 20seconds........bump the starter a little and sure enough its HYDROLOCKED again.

Open the door to fuel ALL over under the car because it was just POURING out of the header collector/turndown pipe! This is either going to end in the car burning down due to a spark in the wrong place, me getting injured when it happens, my garage burning down or all the above!

Needless to say I am not at all pleased right now. Something is still wrong in that box, that is causing this to happen.

My battery does not drain overnight or anything like that. All accessories I have running through a painless fuse block done the right way, not splicing into other wires. Standard HEI with MSD 6al box.

And the wiring for the DFI is pretty simple and straightforward - not much you can screw up there. The harness itself came brand new from them......and appears to be in great shape....

The car is beyond taken good care of - that morning it was fine and I went through everything as my post race routine........call me anal, but that is something I do...

 

[ski_dwn_it]

Unit getting sent back to Accel again for testing. Apparently they do not have any units - as already has been mentioned...........this is just my luck....


next will be me coming on here stating the car/garage and house along with my hide burned to a crisp

I appreciate their help in the matter with little questions being asked. They agreed its definately not the hookup or anything in the car - its in the BOX itself.

I insisted that EVERYTHING is changed in the unit and told them they are getting the harness back too, which they said was not the problem, but I do not want to leave any loose strings hangin. Told them they can check it out as well.

I am again grateful they are addressing it, and hope they adhere to their agreement to not send anything inside the box back to me. They are playin Russian Roulet with a bunch of my money every time this happens..........

We'll see. It happens again.......................

Am I nuts to put this back in the car?

 

[norbs]

Your telling me DFI does not have one single box to give you?????????????? I'd be happy to loan you a gen 6 box, but i don;t have an adapter from the gen 7 to gen 6 made. Your running crank trigger or what kind of igntion set up again?

 

[ski_dwn_it]

Norbs,

Thats what I am being told.....called summitracing today to see if perhaps they had one......they said they are backordered with no definate date in sight.....

Thanks for the offer to help me out. That is very kind of you. I am sending in the box tomorrow, they said they would replace everthing internal - to my understanding there is only one board in these units. Maybe they have replacement ones they can swapout but no complete units.

My ignition is a MSD crank trigger to GM HEI, with msd 6al box.

 

[bobc455]

I'll agree with Norbs- open loop is the way to go at the track.

You can use closed-loop for street driving and such, but at the track (where consistency is king) open loop will give you the repeatable performance that you seek. After each run, you should look at the logs and see if you deviated very much from your target A/F ratio. Besides, after having / tuning the car for a while, you should only be seeing 3-5% correction maximum.

One of the biggest problems with closed loop at the track is exactly what you describe- the correction just before a shift might be completely different than the correction you need after a shift, but the Box has built in "smoothing" so that the correction is not instantaneous.

In theory, it would be nice that if the engine sees a very quick change in RPM (i.e. because of a shift) that the O2 correction zeros out and starts over again. But I'm not sure whether any currently-availble system does that, I think they just rely on P-I loops.

Sorry to hear about the Box problems again. I can't advise where to look, but I gotta wonder if there is something in the car causing the problem- after it was repaired once, it has the same problem again. That is highly unusual! Chances are you didn't change the thing that was causing the problem. (The smoked internals might have been a symptom, not the problem).

I'm not sure about the DFI but I am pretty sure the FAST can take up to 27V. I'd be surprised if you exceeded 15V, and I'd also be surprised if the DFI couldn't withstand well over 18V or even 20V. But you'll have to get a DFI person to answer that. Is everything well grounded? Any plug wires going near some signal wires (or even power wires) that might be causing an EMF spike?

-Bob Cunningham

 

[ski_dwn_it]

Bob thanks for the comments...

What you describing doing at the track is what I did last year. GOt the correction down to 3% mainly focused on 3rd gear, since it was a long and steady. My car really only operates at the track between 6000-7200rpms once I am moving. There is the initial hit where the converter flashes to 5100rpm, then pulls through first gear, which is only about 1.7seconds if that...then second and 3rd gears are pretty much the same.

After I would get the correction locked narrowed down I would lock the correction tables to only allow 5% fuel correction. Wanted some safety factor in the event something went south. The car was deadly consistant. Usually within .00X run to run.

However this year seems I can't get it narrowed down like last year. Granted I have been plagued since the seasons start with intermittant cutting out, sympotom of the major problem.

Saturday the car worked like a champ the first 3 or so runs then towards the end it started to breakup in the waterbox on the burnout.....then Sunday (next day) the ECM went again.

Called DFI, they ASSURED me that I would NOT get the same board back, and the outter case would be the only thing the same. They also said it DEFINATELY wasn't anything in the car itself....I asked repeatedly....their reply was it was something in the box itself that they have not been able to identify. They also said if they had any units available they would just replace it at this point. Guess if they replace the internals, they are....the box itself has little to do with the function of the unit........I agreed that would be satifactory. ....

At the end of the day I reminded them they are playing with my motor, my car and perhaps my safety(life). Not to be dramatic, but this thing just POURS fuel everywhere when it happens. Last time it was ALL over under the car when I got out after trying to link up with the computer. I had a ring of raw fuel about 10ft in diameter directly under the car in my garage. One spark in the wrong place and I, the car, and the garage/house could have been up in flames! That seemed to hit home to them. Again, thus far I have been VERY impressed with their professionalism through this. Obviously I do not want these hassles, but I also realize that there are things that can't sometimes be controlled. If something in the unit itself is intermittently happening, then it makes it difficult to locate. Get the board out and start over fresh......just hope they stick to their word.

It happens again, and I will not be a happy camper to say the least....as I have said before, I have TOO much riding on this.....

 

[tuner]

Hi guys,

I have had many instances in the last 25 years or so where a magnetic triggered system with an MSD or similar box will self trigger itself when the wires from the trigger to the box are too close to the coil or wires to the coil. In short track cars it is popular to mount the box and coil in the driver’s compartment and of course run the wires to the distributor through the firewall. If the trigger wires are too close to the coil or coil wire or the coil primary (orange and black) wires for any length it can start a feed back loop that triggers the ignition without the engine running. Some cars would only do it occasionally, others pretty regularly.

An experience with a Gen7 last fall was that it had erratic timing, as witnessed by timing light, especially at idle. I assumed it was the idle stability timing routine just chasing its tail. The distributor was an MSD with the Ford mag. trigger. The MSD 6AL and one of those big HVC coils were on either side of the distributor, about over each valve cover (BBC) on the firewall. Because the engine was so rough (well, not smooth, anyway) at a low speed we thought a sequential deal would be better because of the valve timing, etc. so an Accel (Mallory) Hall effect, dual trigger distributor entered the picture. At the moment it was first fired up the three of us who had been intimate with the deal and about a half-dozen looky-lookies stood there staring at each other in shock and awe (well, amazement, anyway) at how smooth this engine that had acted so “radical” suddenly was. Really.

I set up the mag triggered dist on a bench between an MSD 6AL and a HVC coil just like the one on the car, triggered it with an MSD tester box and fired a plug with a .125” gap. Looking at the mag trigger output with a scope, there was definitely a high enough voltage to cause triggering of a system. I know of this causing trouble in an application with a Motec system, but they have an attenuation feature in the mag trigger detector circuit that allows some intentional ignorance and that fixed it up. Accel should incorporate such a function.

Anyway, I think this could be your situation.

Re. the LC-1 etc. I use 1/12 in the LC-1, about another 112 ms in the Accel below about 3000 RPM. The VE and the AFR tables are tuned close enough so that WOT needs no feedback and therefore it can’t drive it crazy.

 

[SPEEDSTAR]

All trigger wires must be shielded , and place away from other wires in the system. While working for Firepower , we bench tested all the pickups on the market, and the ford magnetic dist pickup was found to be the worst one to use for race engines and aftermarket ignitions,. Hall effect sensors are the only correct choice, and still they must be installed right. When he replaces the box, it needs to be checked out to make sure it runs properly and watched closely to see if the problem remains, if it does, unhook the crank sensor,check, then the dist. sync sensor, and check. The problem needs to be found by a process of elimination, and also by trying to force it to happen. Also, if the car is using injectors, the pressure in the fuel system would drop to O, and the huge amount of fuel would not be present,. You might be looking at the wrong things. The fuel line pressure usually drops down pretty low when everything is shut off. With the amount of fuel you are describing the injector would have to be stuck on and the fuel pump energized possibly. May need to be looked at from other angles to solve

 

[ski_dwn_it]

Guys,

First thanks for the comment, they are greatly appreciated.

I hear what your saying about the crank trigger. It was re-routed at the first incident of this to a non-electrical route of the car. First time it happen back in the spring I have it near some other wires.

However, this problem is not just limited to injectors firing when they shouldn't, it also consists of laptop not being able to connect (permanent problem), the board itself in the DFI was found to have a defective reference circuit, power circuit, and micro processor circuit.

It was confirmed by DFI after the second occurance of this happening that the problems are DIRECTLY related to something in the box itself. What happened this weekend was after they wrote me back and gave me a list of the above items that were fixed.

Therefore, there has to be something else in that box that is causing the other circuits to fail....either that or other problems exist in that box on the circuit board and they just missed one.

At any rate, I just want the unit fixed. I asked repeatedly to their guys that deal with the circuits if there is anything in the car that could be causing this. Their answer was straight up - NO, its in the box.

The car runs great when this doesn't happen. I have no other complaints about DFI on a rather radical setup - its street manner are perfect in the sense of no problems driving in traffic etc.

I expect a call from them today regarding the unit......curious to see what they have to say upon looking at it.

They said they would be replacing the entire board, because they said that it might not be possible to identify the component that has a problem, causing the other circuits to fail permanently.

Again thanks for your help........its much appreciate and i will be sure to keep you guys all posted on the progress their handling of the situation.

 

[turbopaul]

Not to hijack this thread, but what is wrong with the Ford magnetic pickup? What test did you perform that showed a weakness? And how did you measure the results?

Paul

 

[tuner]

Hi guys,

I don’t presume to answer for SPEEDSTAR but the Ford pick-up’s strength is its weakness. It has a higher voltage output for a similar disturbance of the magnetic flux, thus rendering it more sensitive to influence from outside sources of EMF. It also has a cute little trick of advancing the point where the flux flips (the trigger point) at low (cranking) speed, some 10 or 12 degrees. Ford ignition boxes (and others if they are to be compatible) compensate for this, the early ones by a signal in from the starter relay (white wire) or by being RPM sensitive in later ones. Aftermarket boxes must be RPM sensitive, I’m not aware of any that have a crank retard circuit except for use with locked dists. or crank triggers.

Hey Ski, is your HEI of the coil-in-cap variety? The distributors for computer-timed systems are different in that the pick-up coils and high voltage coils are designed so that the firing of the HV coil can’t re-strike the trigger. In the EST systems the pick-up coil has that aluminum shield over it and the ign. coil has red and white primary wires. The regular (weights and springs) system coil has red and yellow pri. wires and, of course, no shield on the pick-up. I’ve seen the wrong coil in the system with the shielded pick-up fire continuously when the key was on.

 

[ski_dwn_it]

Hi guys,

I don’t presume to answer for SPEEDSTAR but the Ford pick-up’s strength is its weakness. It has a higher voltage output for a similar disturbance of the magnetic flux, thus rendering it more sensitive to influence from outside sources of EMF. It also has a cute little trick of advancing the point where the flux flips (the trigger point) at low (cranking) speed, some 10 or 12 degrees. Ford ignition boxes (and others if they are to be compatible) compensate for this, the early ones by a signal in from the starter relay (white wire) or by being RPM sensitive in later ones. Aftermarket boxes must be RPM sensitive, I’m not aware of any that have a crank retard circuit except for use with locked dists. or crank triggers.

Hey Ski, is your HEI of the coil-in-cap variety? The distributors for computer-timed systems are different in that the pick-up coils and high voltage coils are designed so that the firing of the HV coil can’t re-strike the trigger. In the EST systems the pick-up coil has that aluminum shield over it and the ign. coil has red and white primary wires. The regular (weights and springs) system coil has red and yellow pri. wires and, of course, no shield on the pick-up. I’ve seen the wrong coil in the system with the shielded pick-up fire continuously when the key was on.

I have the in cap coil.........break down what you are trying to say- I had a hard time following what it was you were asking. ...

My EST is not hooked up with my setup....

I *believe* that my crank trigger wires come up from the crank, and are tied into the DFI harness through the one they provided for my HEI ingition....(how I can't remember exactly; craig S helped me out with this when I went to the trigger.) then my MSD is tied into the coil. Again I can't recall exactly how everything is....but my timing is dead on when I lock the timing and check it.........

Again, how would this be tied to causing the problems internal the box they found on the last inspection of it?

I do appreciate your input keep the ideas comin....

 

[norbs]

If your est is not hooked up how does it work then??????????

The est triggers the msd box on the points terminal. How is your msd box being triggered??

 

[ski_dwn_it]

If your est is not hooked up how does it work then??????????

The est triggers the msd box on the points terminal. How is your msd box being triggered??

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, maybe it is now that I think about it.....again it was nearly 1 year ago since I hooked it up and the car ran the better 1/2 of last year with the same hookup and pulled 1.37 60' times and 10.1 through the 1/4 and I did not have a lick of the trouble I am having this year.......so again I doubt anything here will turn up much. I have a question into Craig about how it was we hooked it up..........sorry I can't remember exactly the configuration off hand....I could go out tomorrow with the DFI schematic and figure it out......doubt there are many ways to hook it up and everything work....something now I will have to figure out and write it all down for future reference...,,,,,,

Should be getting a call from DFI tomorrow on the box.....curious as to what they will have to say about what they see when they pull it apart.....last time it only took 2 hours to get a description of the problem........maybe they rushed it and did not take a good enough look at it....

 

[tuner]

By EST I just meant the computer is in charge of the ignition advance. Or, are you using the weights and springs?

If you don’t have a magnetic pick-up in the distributor, it’s a moot point. If you have a mag pick-up, the wrong combination of coil and pick-up will self-trigger in a feed back loop. It may not do it all the time or ever, or only when the sunspot activity is high, I don’t know. I do know that it can and particular pick-ups and coils are intended for use with large offsets between triggering and firing. The stock computer cars do not use the same coil and pick-up as the non-computer cars. When the wrong parts are mixed the ignitions, MSD, stock HEI or otherwise, will OCCASIONALLY fire continuously just because they are powered up, the engine doesn’t have to be running. Because the ignition signal is the injector trigger, I thought that could be your problem. When this happens the tach usually pegs.

Is the “crank trigger” you’re referring to the cam position sensor, hence the base timing set and the cylinders triggered by the pickup in the distributor? Is your deal batch fired or sequential?