on the fence rebuild or champion irons

[justamatt]

I've had a intermitten oil burning issue for some time now ever since the rebuild (has about 5k miles)its consumed about a quart a week daily driven I've tracked it down to one of two things valve guides or rings the machinist thinks its the rings. I've been dreaming of champion irons for a while now but i just did a leak down and here are the results

1: 4%
2: 9%
3: 9%
4: 12%
5: 5%
6: 5%

put some oil in number four and it went to 6%

so what you guys think do rebuild or heads cant afford both?

 

[89ICBM]

I've had a intermitten oil burning issue for some time now ever since the rebuild (has about 5k miles)its consumed about a quart a week daily driven I've tracked it down to one of two things valve guides or rings the machinist thinks its the rings. I've been dreaming of champion irons for a while now but i just did a leak down and here are the results

1: 4%
2: 9%
3: 9%
4: 12%
5: 5%
6: 5%

put some oil in number four and it went to 6%

so what you guys think do rebuild or heads cant afford both?

Hi!

When you had the rebuild done did you have any head work at all? I mean at least a valve job. As far as the rebuild goes I am suspect to the numbers on 2,3 and 4. There's a lot of variables here. I don't know what you paid for the job but if this problem has been there since the rebuild you need to talk to the folks that did the work. I think that I would bypass the Champion heads but that's me. I have some Buick buddies that had there heads done by a guy and they were very happy with the work. The cost was, as I remember, $600.00 to port, polish and I think bigger valves but don't hold me to that one. I would be happy to get you the info if you want. My heads were done by GTP in Houston but I really can't recommend Craig any longer because of turn around time and expense. I think first of all you need to address the rebuild. Like I said, there's a lot of variables here. Rings, did they install the rings wrong or did they use gap less rings (junk) they'll never seat. Valve guides, possible. Either way, lots of blow by. This could then cause oil leakage at the intake gasket and rear main seal, you may even see oil on your valve covers and cross over pipe.

 

[justamatt]

well getting information from the machinist isnt the most reliable apparently he wrote nothing down and is a little fuzzy on the details all i can say about the rings is that they are not total seal gapless and for the valves he did cut new seats but i dont know if he checked the clearance's on the stems im going to be pulling the heads to see what i can find. Is there a method for checking the stem clearance?

 

[Razor]

Leakdown wont tell if you have bad oil rings. Your spark plugs will.

So look for the plug that has the soot and go after the issue. may be bad valve seals, or worn guides.. and you only need a seal on the intake valve.

Again, find the source of the oil burning.. it can even be the turbo... and a lot of times is.

Doing heads and having screwed up rings is dumb. If thats the case. And doubt all cylinders are consuming oil.

If its rings, sometimes you can rehone the cylinder and drop a new set of rings in pretty chip. That can only be answered by the machine shop when they check piston to wall clearance.

Again, be 90+ percent sure what direction before tearing it down.

 

[justamatt]

Alright the plug with the visible oil on the ceramic and nut is #6 and truth be told i took it to the track last saturday and well something happend im not sure what yet anyhow she lost some coolant and some oil on the 4th or 5th run so im thinking someting is up with a gaskett. Cause now when i start her she blows white smoke and just smells a little of fuel so coolant is what im guessing she is parked now and all the plugs had a little carbon on them from best i could tell where it is black it Doesnt come off and isnt wet. Before i replaced all the intake valves from umbrellas to felpros they were all pretty sooty. Well anyhow check this link if you want more data from that
day at the track.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/303877-another-knock-logger-attached.html

And as far as other possibilites
PCV is dry as is throttlebody and turbo compressor outlet
checked turbo didnt see any wet oil and sent it back to precision just to be sure
pulled lower intake manifold and checked clearances all good all consistant and the gaskett showed full crush
intake valves replaced from umbrellas to felpro i didnt pull the umbrellas off the exhaust when i did this it stoped 80% of the oil burning but not all

and I couldnt agree more putting new heads on a smoking motor is probably not the smartest thing to do. To be honest it really pisses me off that I might have to pull it again and throw more money at something that isnt improving anything and is only to fix some bad work but it is what it is

if you would like me to pull a plug and take a close up of it I would be happy to im not the best plug reader yet

Thanks for your help guys

 

[89ICBM]

Alright the plug with the visible oil on the ceramic and nut is #6 and truth be told i took it to the track last saturday and well something happend im not sure what yet anyhow she lost some coolant and some oil on the 4th or 5th run so im thinking someting is up with a gaskett. Cause now when i start her she blows white smoke and just smells a little of fuel so coolant is what im guessing she is parked now and all the plugs had a little carbon on them from best i could tell where it is black it Doesnt come off and isnt wet. Before i replaced all the intake valves from umbrellas to felpros they were all pretty sooty. Well anyhow check this link if you want more data from that
day at the track.

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/general-turbo-buick-tech/303877-another-knock-logger-attached.html


Hi Justamatt,

Sorry about this problem but, I and many others have been there, it's a truly sickning feeling. Hey, I left 8K layin on the floor of a speed shop once doin a dyno run because the crank broke at about 6K. Motor was a total lose, block and all.
Your discription of the problem indicates you are getting coolant into 1 or more cylinders but I think you know that. You don't need to be a NASCAR crew chief to look at the plugs again to see which one or ones are really clean, the clean one is where the water is. I personally hate doing this but, you need to pull your heads. If you haven't had any head work done it's probably not a water jacket issue but stranger things have happened so get the heads pressure checked, this is not an option, do it! Now you should be able to see where the head gasket failed, hopefully that's the problem, the cylinder or ders will be steam cleaned on the piston top. I'm thinking that this is the problem but even if it's not, I will give a personal opinion and choice here, get some stock size cometic gaskets and a can of gasgacinch, apply librally to both sides of the gaskets and follow the torque sequence in 3 steps. OK! Now for the really bad scenario, you had a rebuild done. There is a possibilty that the cylinder work cut a water jacket to thin and has broken thru. If the heads and gaskets check out ok you will need to pull the block strip it down and have the cylinders sonic tested. I haven't seen this happen but I know it's a real possibilty. As a rule, machine shops normally check for this so I have to say it's a very, very small chance.

 

[1turbo6]

do the valves have umbrella style seals on them? mine do and it is causing it to smoke pretty good at idle, heads are coming off this winter.

 

[Razor]

Looks like your leaking oil from the VC gasket. How else does oil get on the header.

You need to completely degrease the entire engine bay and address all the leaks. These leaks are what consume oil.

One of your plugs also has smoke on the porcelin, meaning your header is leaking.

I dont see any issue with the plugs. Oil'd up plugs are usually gummed up.

 

[justamatt]

So you think the cylinders and rings might be ok??

the valve seals are felpro on the intake and umbrella's on 4 of the exhaust (couldnt get to number 6 and it was a pita)

 

[89ICBM]

So you think the cylinders and rings might be ok??

the valve seals are felpro on the intake and umbrella's on 4 of the exhaust (couldnt get to number 6 and it was a pita)

Hi Justamatt,

I would say, is the smoke you see coming from the engine bay or from the tail pipes? If it's a oil leak from the bay you should be able to smell the burning oil in the cockpit when you stop the car, like at a red light. Then you have to identify the color of the smoke if it's coming from the tail pipes. Is it a light blue color or white like maybe fog. If it's white, it's coolant. Check your resivoir to see if there's any lose of coolant. If it's light blue it's oil coming from oil in a combustion chamber. If you are leaking oil from a valve cover gasket or some other engine bay leak you should see burnt coked up oil on the headers or most likely, the cross over pipe and even dripping oil from underneath. Since the heads were done the heads should have been decked to at least make them flat. As I have mentioned before, this can cause a leak if not sealed properly. I couldn't tell anything from the plugs, I guess I can't see that well.

 

[justamatt]

thank you all for your post I will be pullilng the heads tomorrow just to take a look around to answer your questions 89icbm yes you can smell the oil from the **** pit sometimes and definatly if you are following me now when it smoked i always thought it was white like water but you could smell oil pretty badly im guessing the heads never sealed right from day one (water wise) and probably leaking oil in engine bay slightly enough to smell and not see making me think it was oil. now its pretty apparent that water is getting into a cylinder with the amount of smoke last time i started it so ill pull em and report back

 

[justamatt]

Well tomorrow turned into a long time (family issues) so I pulled the heads all six cylinders appear to have some oil burnt into the top of them. Im sending these pics to the guy that did the work but of coarse would love your opinions

 

[justamatt]

 

[justamatt]

ill have to load the drivers side this weekend i left the pics at home any how they look the same


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[justamatt]

 

[justamatt]

Well to my untrained eye im thinking every cylander has been leaking oil and im guessing through the rings. Anybody else?

 

[Razor]

number 4 looks like crap. The others are ok.