On/Off center pros and cons

stage blocks

i have 4 stage 2 4.1 blocks one is new , all offcenter, and a new spare kings crank 3.625, and a spare 3.590 motor sport crank, i have 2 extra complete short blocks, i have enought old stage stuff to last a long time , so i wont be running out and buying a new alum, block, besides i have one setting in the garage its sold, if the block is only 3500 bucks i smoke more cigars in a year than that, you only live once go get one, it is great that ta is making new blocks and heads, it took a lot of capital to take on a project like this , sorta like playing the stock market, if people dont buy them TA could loose a lot of money , so i may buy a new set of their heads if they out flo my new champion R heads, ps i dont have any parts for sale, oc,
 
I too agree, people that already have stage motors are not going to dump their iron block and run out and spend $3500 to save 50 lbs. Possibly some of the super fast guys might but not your regular 9 second schmoe like me?. J Certainly are better way to make your car faster for $3500. If someone grenades their stage block then yeah, why not, spend a little more and get a new AL block. I'm not too sure it's going to bring down the prices of iron, maybe slightly. I don't think you're going to see block prices slashed in half. Either way, the TA stuff is only going to help us all out!
 
I seriously dobt that it will be stronger than an on center block. Lets not cross that bridge untill a few are out and tested at those levels. I think TA is going more for a better stock replacement block than trying to take on the stage blocks. 1500hp is alot to ask of an alluminum v-6 block, especially a 3.8.
 
The object of the whole block project is to make an alum. block to replace the Iron Stage 2 block and to make it to take higher HP levels than the Iron block that accepts all of the factory accessory’s. Has anyone thought of what Kenny D. was getting out of this project? Probably nothing more than a new block and heads so he can sell complete engine assembly’s. I dont think Kenny D. would even waste his time for a simple 109 block replacement project that would only handle 700 HP. They are building 4.1 as well not just a 3.8. I do agree that no one will know for sure till they are out in the feild making some HP.
 
GNSCOTT, are you an experienced engine builder involved in the development of the TA block like Kenny Duttweiler?? Nick Micale has said that the TA aluminum block will be just as strong and possibly stronger than the Stage II On Center block and like I said before they (TA Performance) will be making both On and Off Center blocks so I wouldn't doubt it!!! Also, I seriously doubt Nick Micale would make such bold statements if the block was only a stock replacement, but hey what do I know.... I'm not an experienced engine builder like yourself:rolleyes:
 
Easy boys! People just giving an opinion. I'm sure TA is doing everything they can to make it as strong as possible. AL blocks are a tricky thing (not that iron is easy). I think all people are certainly hoping that the TA block is as strong as reported, just some people are a little skeptical. That's OK, time will tell. I think we all agree that it's awesome someone's making aluminum engine parts for our cars given the limited market potential.
 
Originally posted by TurboDiverArt
Easy boys! People just giving an opinion. I'm sure TA is doing everything they can to make it as strong as possible. AL blocks are a tricky thing (not that iron is easy). I think all people are certainly hoping that the TA block is as strong as reported, just some people are a little skeptical. That's OK, time will tell. I think we all agree that it's awesome someone's making aluminum engine parts for our cars given the limited market potential.
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I agree Art.

Really, everyone is entitled to their own opinion/sceptisism. I think they're doing a great job and seem to be putting in the necessary R&D required to make a project like this work. Only time, however, will tell the degree of sucess.
 
Originally posted by RealFastV6
I agree Art.

Really, everyone is entitled to their own opinion/sceptisism. I think they're doing a great job and seem to be putting in the necessary R&D required to make a project like this work. Only time, however, will tell the degree of sucess.
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Couldn't have said it better myself (and I tried)..... :D
 
I don't have a problem with people giving their opinions (God knows I give mine enough);), however, I think if somebody like Nick Micale makes a statement it holds more water than somebodies opinion who is not involved with the R&D of this block project.... The bottom line is I think some people who already have Stage II blocks (especially On Centers) don't want to believe that there will be a block that might be able to support more horsepower and the fact that it's made out of aluminum and is about 50lbs lighter also seems to add to the disbelief!!! Either way I think what TA Performance is doing will benefit all of us who are Turbo Buick performance enthusiast and that is something we should all be able to agree on!!!!:) :cool:
 
Originally posted by 86brick
I don't have a problem with people giving their opinions (God knows I give mine enough);), however, I think if somebody like Nick Micale makes a statement it holds more water than somebodies opinion who is not involved with the R&D of this block project.... The bottom line is I think some people who already have Stage II blocks (especially On Centers) don't want to believe that there will be a block that might be able to support more horsepower and the fact that it's made out of aluminum and is about 50lbs lighter also seems to add to the disbelief!!! Either way I think what TA Performance is doing will benefit all of us who are Turbo Buick performance enthusiast and that is something we should all be able to agree on!!!!:) :cool:
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I think you are right and wrong. Let's face it, there are only so many people that are pushing their stage II blocks to the limit. There are only so many people out there that are going to push it to or beyond the limit that Duttweiler, Conley, Rankin, etc. have pushed it. My car's an on center block, I personally don't care if there is a block that's better or not. If I were going to push the motor into the 8's, I'd still be OK with my iron on-center block. I want my car to run consistent high 9's, I'm happy with it. Could have been done with an off-center, no problem. Could have been done with a Stage I safely without much problem either. Most of us are not running at the performance level that will break these blocks or where 50 lbs is going to make that much of a difference. If you are running 8?s or below then maybe you are correct in that this might make a difference. For most of us I think good weather or track prep is going to make more difference than 50 lbs off the nose.

I don't know Nick M. personally but have conversed with him over email. He certainly knows his stuff, don?t think anyone if doubting him. The problem with trusting names is that people have been burned before. Remember the people touting the budget rollers, most every one who believed the experts got burned....

The TA block and other stuff are going to be awesome and no doubt will help our sport. Most of us probably will only dream about pushing our cars to the limits where the added strength will be needed. Look at the people running the off center blocks, how fast are they going without breaking the block or sending the crank through the webbing?

This is truly a situation where only time will tell!
 
GNSCOTT, are you an experienced engine builder involved in the development of the TA block like Kenny Duttweiler?? Nick Micale has said that the TA aluminum block will be just as strong and possibly stronger than the Stage II On Center block and like I said before they (TA Performance) will be making both On and Off Center blocks so I wouldn't doubt it!!! Also, I seriously doubt Nick Micale would make such bold statements if the block was only a stock replacement, but hey what do I know.... I'm not an experienced engine builder like yourself


I understand what you are saying. I don't understand the sarcasm though. When i called Nick last year to order a block (oct) he told me they were TRYING to make it handle 1000hp. I'm not sure exactly how much HP Duttweiler's car had (i hear 1500),an i'd say with those times, 1500hp is 1500RWHP. When you are talking about motor strength its fwhp, so am i correct in assuming that KD's motor handled around 1800fwhp??

There is nothing i'd like more than to have this new block handle more HP than any stage motor out there. It would do nothing but help our community, spark more interest in our cars, and really help us at the shootouts:) . Like it was mentioned above, I am problably building my car to be capeable of faster than i want to go anyway. I was building for TSS, but with cars deep in the 8's now, I know i do not want to compete with that on a stock chassis so i do not need anymore HP, i'll leave that for the heavy hitters.


I do know that if anyone could do it, it would be that team.Do i have dobt on those HP levels???? Yes. Do I hope i'm wrong??? Yes.
 
I have seen several Stage 2 blocks go to the bone yard not because they were being pushed hard but simply a rod blows threw the side of the block and screws up someones whole day. It sure does not matter on or off center and how strong they are when a rod cuts loose, blocks get screwed up. Piston scores a cyl. many things other than just raw power. I have seen many blocks (and I own one) that have been repaired and some several times and many hack jobs that are not worth squat. I think its great for our group as a whole that TA is producing this block. Some think stage blocks are not in short supply and maybe they are right. I can say this every year there are no blocks being produced there are less nice blocks to buy and more junk and repairs that people have to settle for and the price on the existing good blocks continues to climb. Who would have ever thought a 4.1 off center stage 2 would sell for $3500 when they were around $800 new (that was price I was quoted when I worked for GM years ago) If no new block was to be made how much will that off center be in 5 more years or even a cherry on-center block. If you are a true blue Buick Turbo guy I would think you should be supporting the TA Block and hoping for the best.
 
Im not sure witch block it was that Ohio George looked at but he said no way will it handle those kinds of power levels :confused: :confused: I said Kenny D. was helping on it and he said i dont care it wont handle the kind of power a iron block will. I SURE hope he is wrong because we need these blocks BAD for us V6 HP freaks:D Maybe it was a early version and the newer ones are made a little stonger:confused: The raw casting i saw at the NAT,s was a beefy looking piece to me. Top fuel car make big power with a TFX block so WTF? Of course there head studs go all the way to the main web:eek: Anyways it going to be a great thing TA is doing for us one way or another.
 
Originally posted by quickt
I have seen several Stage 2 blocks go to the bone yard not because they were being pushed hard but simply a rod blows threw the side of the block and screws up someones whole day. It sure does not matter on or off center and how strong they are when a rod cuts loose, blocks get screwed up. Piston scores a cyl. many things other than just raw power. I have seen many blocks (and I own one) that have been repaired and some several times and many hack jobs that are not worth squat. I think its great for our group as a whole that TA is producing this block. Some think stage blocks are not in short supply and maybe they are right. I can say this every year there are no blocks being produced there are less nice blocks to buy and more junk and repairs that people have to settle for and the price on the existing good blocks continues to climb. Who would have ever thought a 4.1 off center stage 2 would sell for $3500 when they were around $800 new (that was price I was quoted when I worked for GM years ago) If no new block was to be made how much will that off center be in 5 more years or even a cherry on-center block. If you are a true blue Buick Turbo guy I would think you should be supporting the TA Block and hoping for the best.
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Lonnie,

I don?t think anyone is doubting that what TA is doing is not a great thing and will help our sport. You could be right in that when the TA?s are available and proven to support the HP levels that stage blocks may creep down. If they are selling for $3500 now, maybe a year or 2 after the TA?s are available the price may creep down a bit. You are not all of a sudden going to start seeing stage blocks dropping below $1000. Not sure what people are thinking when they say prices will drop. If you are paying $3500 now and the price drops to $3200, big deal, you?ve still got a LONG way to go to completing the engine. If they drop from $3500 to $2500 this is great but it?s still a lot of money and you still have a lot more money to spend.
The point about a rod deciding to say ?hello? to the outside world is exactly my point. It?s typically not the fault of the block. A rod letting lose in just about any engine is going to do damage to the block. What we typically don?t see (at least not at most people?s HP level) is the block failing. Yes, when you are pushing the limits failures do happen but I don?t think there are too many people in the 9?s or even the 8?s breaking because of a block failure, it?s usually something else being the cause.
 
geno- this is not directed towards you at all. it directed to the naysayers and you are not the first person that i have heard the ohio geroge statement from.

I dont care what ohio george said. Does ohio george have a crystal ball? Kenny d seems to think it will handle 1500 hp. Who makes that with their own car and who is bending over the buick stage community right now? hmmm? Of course goerge says the alum stuff wont take it, he has more iron stuff to sell. Remember when the people "in the know" said an aluminum head on our car would melt? How many people in this thread have alum heads on thier car right now?

As far as im concerned the block hp limit is on a wait and see status right now. Kenny d and mike t are going to push the block , im sure. Why are we all arguing about this?
 
I didnt take it that way at all:) :)
All i know is KD and Buddy Ingersol are the guys that put the Buick V6 to the test;) They made alot of people take note of what a V6 could do:) They put up the numbers that others could only wish for:eek: If KD says it will take big power then im thinking it will:) We are all just waiting to see if this block will keep our cars a legend for years to come;) I hope this is the begining of something great for us buick guys. The guys at TA make some nice stuff and i have no question that if anyone can do it they can and i wish them all the luck with this:cool: Im on the edge of my chair just waiting to see some dyno numbers. Ive heard John Gialina is going to have KD build one for him. That should be a good test bed for these blocks:)
 
blocks

hey brian . ohio george is what we called him back in the 60, his indy lite motors are normal asaprated but are injected, only make 450 horse power at 7000 rpm, how many buick racers make over 1300 hp, kent rebeck, 7 sec car, dotson same , these are two of a few that run in the 7 sec. range. most high 8 and low 9 cars make under 1200 hp, my motor makes around 900 hp on a clear day lol, , breakage i broke a rod yes it went through the side of block had it repaired, i had rod bearing failure on another motor, reason i said bearing failure is the other 5 looked like new, no motor is bullet proof, i think the new TA is going to be ok for most people, i build my own motors, so when something goes wrong i cant blame anyone. you never get to old to learn im 62 and still learning, :rolleyes: just my opinion oc,
 
Initial Press Release of TA Performance Aluminum block....

"Preliminary evaluations by individuals involved in Top Fuel and Turbo Buick communities estimate that the block is capable of handling 2000 to 3000 HP!" :D
 
Very cool!! Maybe someone could have a running engine by Bristol. The nats is cutting it a little close to have an engine fully tuned.
 
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