On/Off center pros and cons

[6banger]

Fellas`,

I`m ready to empty my wallet faster than the stock market did!Looking into a Stage motor.I`m a born again gearhead and have seen the light , I`m converting from Big Cube Chevys to the technologically advanced turbo cars. I`m not new to going fast,(had a blown 9 sec pro street car)just new to the V-6 stage motors.What are the in` and out`s of the two types of blocks Any info is appreciated. Also what block (displacement,on/off center) is #2500012,and is it a good foundation to start with?
I read the other post about "Buick Stage II V-6 Racing Engine The Complete Preparation Guide for NASCAR, Grand National, and Short Track Racing" and too am having a tough time finding it.
Thanks,
Jim

Ratikl@aol.com

 

[Trbobuick]

25500012? 11 is a stage 1 3.8...13 is a stage 2 3.8.

sounds like a stage motor

PROS
stage 1 will take 750+ hp
stage 2 offcenter will take 1200 hp
stage 2 on center will take 1500 hp
with a stage block your crank wont fall out
still parts avalible
stage 2 heads will flow huge numbers
on off center big cube motor with stock style heads will look stock
intakes for stage 2 motors still avalible


CONS
Stage stuff costs $$$$
off center blocks hard to come by
hard to find an engine builder
having to realize it would have been 6000.00 cheaper to put a BBC in it
if using an on center block and stock stylle heads, a sheetmetal intake has to be made
all stage 2 intakes have to be converted for fuel injection


im sure there are more but i am new to the joys of owning a stage 2 motor.....im sure there will be mnuch much more

 

[NJTurbo]

First question you need to ask yourself before considering either engine. What are your goals, how much street driving will the car see, is it just for all out race.

 

[6banger]

Thanks so far, I come from the old school of do it once and do it right ( That`s why it took me six years to finish my other project). As for now it would see more street time than track but I would like to invest in a foundation that I can build up later on in stead of doing it twice. I like the idea of being able to drive a car to the track instead of towing it. I`m not looking to do a max build up right now but always have the option. I plan on utilizing the Fel-Pro managment system and try to acheive the best of both worlds. My children are taking up much of my time right now, and being able to say "Been there, Done that" by doing a ground up project I would rather pick up a car or project that has most of the work (and cost) already done.
I`m new to the "High End" parts and want to be sure of what I may be getting into.
Thanks in advance,
Jim

 

[NJTurbo]

Try and find a stage car already done, they are out there. You will save time and money and be able to spend more time with the kids If you build one IMO do a off-center a little easier to build as far as parts, and it bolts in nice.

 

[GNSCOTT]

I just can't see the reason for wanting an off center motor over an on center, especially for someone who wants a foundation for all out performance. The only part that i can see that is harder to find for an on center is the intake, and even thats a stretch because its hard as hell to find a Bowling Green intake now adays, and what other intake would you use???

I can see if your building a mid 10 second street car, and you wanna use some stock internals, but for the foundation I think an on center is peferrable, but a forged internal off center shouldn't be a problem.

 

[quickt]

Looks Like the TA Block and other stuff will be for off center so I think that would be a huge advantage over buying an on-center as there will be new support parts out there.

 

[GNSCOTT]

Lonnie, block aside, you can get any S2 part new. I think the TA block will help because of the S2 blocks drying up, and a little weight savings off the front end. All the internals cost the exact same to produce for both blocks.

 

[quickt]

I am not sure about that but you could be right. Oliver wide journal rods 6.5 or 6.0 off center $850 on the shelf. Oliver 6.5 on-center $1000 6 week wait. Pistons and cranks all the same. Intakes are a dime a dozen for the off center hard to find for on-center. Stock front cover off-center. Much more involved on-center. Oil dipstick in block off center. Much more involved on-center. If it were not for the TA Block I would agree that a guy would be nuts to build an off-center simply because if he blew it up would almost be like starting over.

 

[GNSCOTT]

Yea, your right about a few parts being little more. I still don't see tons offf center intakes out there. Bowling green is the only one i can think of off hand,and a converted 4brl has to out flow that. Now you have to take block pricing to consideration.

 

[quickt]

Prices of blocks you got me there as you need a loan on your house for a cherry off center. The TA block will bring those prices down. I think will also bring the On-Center down as well.

 

[GNSCOTT]

TA block will deffinately bring down the prices of the stage blocks (i'd say virgin blocks will remain the same) People want new, and if you have the chance to spend a little more and not have anyone elses headaches, its a good move.

 

[NJTurbo]

I do not know if i agree. Here is the way i see it. Off center you do have a option other than a BG, The stock intake heavily ported has been low 10's high 9's. And i personally would buy a good used off-center as the big money in machine work has already been done for crank clearence, main cap work ETC. Buying a virgin has its ups and downs, i was told when i was looking that a virgin cost far more at the machine shop than a real clean used one. They are out there, i also think with the TA block hitting the streets next year, you will see S2's come out of the wood work for sale. Just IMO

 

[LikeMy6]

Jim you wanted to know what block 2500012 is here ya go:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/pictureguides/blocks/38stage2.html
Check that out and you will find out. and yes it is a very nice 3.8 off-center block. cast in 1985. Ron Fruchey ran a 215cid off-center StageII spinning it up to 8000rpm making over 1000hp, for years.

Later

Frank

 

[geno]

I dont know why people say the ta block will bring the price of a used S2 blocks down. Lets see a used stage 2 on center block at lets say 4.020 undamaged goes for $1500 to $2000. Hell you can still buy a S2 long block on center for $4000 to $5500The new ta block alone is up to $3500 and has yet to be proved if it will take big power like a on center Thats just my 2 cents on it I heard there is only 5 or maybe 10 people that are on a list as waiting for a ta block. Im sure TA will make a good piece but it did take GM a while before they got it right The one advantage i see with the ta block is a pan rail repair or a cylinder sleeve and weight of course.

 

[quickt]

Originally posted by geno
I dont know why people say the ta block will bring the price of a used S2 blocks down. Lets see a used stage 2 on center block at lets say 4.020 undamaged goes for $1500 to $2000. Hell you can still buy a S2 long block on center for $4000 to $5500The new ta block alone is up to $3500 and has yet to be proved if it will take big power like a on center Thats just my 2 cents on it I heard there is only 5 or maybe 10 people that are on a list as waiting for a ta block. Im sure TA will make a good piece but it did take GM a while before they got it right The one advantage i see with the ta block is a pan rail repair or a cylinder sleeve and weight of course.

I dont think the TA block will hurt the ON-Center pricing much but it will the hurt off-center. Also consider that the TA block will be machined and accept all the factory parts. (atleast thats what Mike at TA told me) I would buy a TA block for the $3500 much quicker than I would a used Iron block for close to the same. I have seen 4.030 off centers for as high as $2500-$3000 and they are sold when you call on them. I know there are cheeper off centers if you look hard but if I am spending the big coin I dont want one that has been welded on.

 

[86brick]

Guys I'm pretty sure Nick Micale said the TA block will be made in both On and Off center configurations.... Also, keep in mind that experienced engine builders have said that they think the TA block will be able to handle in excess of 1500hp (conservative estimates are between 1200-1500hp) which means it could possibly be stronger than an On center Stage II block (which has been able to handle around 1500hp as tested by Kenny Duttweiler).... Geno, for $3500 you get a new fully machined block (no machine work has to be done) with caps (6-bolt main caps) and liners and it is 50lbs lighter than a Stage II block so IMHO it's well worth it! Another advantage I see is aluminum is cheaper to repair than iron so this way if you install a window in your block like Mr. Fiscus it won't cost you an arm and a leg and nobody will have to cut there block
BTW, I think what you did for Dave was an awesome gesture and I hope you have good luck with your motors cause a good guy like yourself deserves good luck!

Later.

 

[gnxtc2]

I too believe when the TA Block comes out it will lower the prices of the Stage blocks.

There are Stage blocks out there, but people are hoarding them away. I too am looking for an off-center 4.1 Stage 2. I heard a rumor that someone has a virgin one, $3500 but I am holding off. I am waiting for the TA one for the same price. The TA block has more to offer for the same price. If Kenny is involved, then there is something to look forward to.

If this AL block is as good as it supposed to be, you will see people trying to dump the Stage block.

Billy T.
gnxtc2@aol.com

 

[Louie L.]

In my personal opinion the TA block will not have any bearing on future price of New/used Stage 2 blocks. Most of the folks who have previously stated that they would buy one will not, also you are not going to see current Stage motor owners dumping their stuff to jump on the alum piece.

I know i wont be dumping my S2 4.1 offcenter block

Im really more interested in what kind of cranks and rods will be available for the new blocks and what the pricing line will be.

 

[geno]

I know one thing for sure its great they are making a block for us buick guys This is sure to help keep us racing our cars after all the stage block are used up.. 86brick anybody would help a guy like Dave the window maker. He is one of those guys you like the first time you meet him