Need Opinions on Methanol for my Car

[Allen Vos]

Hi Guys

I come over from the turbo mustangs forum, this site has been highly reccomended for information on Methanol Injection.

I know Im not running a Turbo Buick but just looking for some feed back on what I am doing.

I run a 91 mustang 302 5.0 parts are as follow

stock cam and short block @ 9.2 compression shifting at 5500 RPM
Afr 185 cylinder heads
Holley intake with 50 lb per hour injectors
Home built twin T-3 garret turbo setup (.60/.63) @ 13 psi
Treadstone Bar and Plate vertical flow intercooler.
Built Automatic with 3.27 gears and 2800 stall PTC converter
Devils Own Methanol Injection kit with M12 Nozzle @150 psi pressure
Mega Squirt engine managment with Inovate LC-1 Wideband

Best Quarter mile run to date is 10.68 ET @ 128 MPH without the METHANOL

This is with 13 psi and timing @ 20 degrees at max boost on 94 octane fuel
Air temperatures after the cooler were around the 140 degrees F

I have since had my torque converter tightned up which puts significantly
more load on the engine which only allows me to run a total of 15 degree max
ignition timing before I can hear detonation.

Now its time to put a methanol injection kit on the car

I used the caculator on the Devils own to determine I needed the M12 nozzle
for my car. (302 CU Inch, 5500RPM @15 psi)

I am using the -40 degree celsius winshield washer fluid which according to
what I have read on this site is 50% methanol.

Now with the pump activated and spraying washer fluid I was able to get
the timing advanced to 23 degrees with 13 PSI of boost and an A/F ratio of 11:1 Also something worth noting is that the Air Intake temps did not really drop at all. It was still in the 140 F range. But I think the added ignition timing would require more airflow from the turbos which would bring the temperature up.

I cant push it any farther than this without hearing detonation.

My goal is to run pump gas (94 octane) @ 15-16 PSI with 25 degrees of
igntion timing.

Is running washer fluid my problem here???

Would I be able to push it any farther by using a 50/50 mix of actual
methanol????

Or would I be better to use straight methanol?????

Does my goal sound attainable????

Thanks in Advance

Allen Vos

 

[Razor]

If you can audibly hear detonation..you are so far off the charts its silly.

I cannot comment on tuning a competitors system, that would be for them to do. But it has been my experience that when squeezing on an engine real hard, straight methanol works the best for detonation and creation of power. The washer fluid will allow more boost and timing but cost you power, and create tuning issues. Like what your experiencing.

Now the use of straight methanol requires the entire system to have been designed and built with that consideration in mind. So not all kits can handle straight methanol. And the potential hazards related to doing so.

So.. you need to get a handle on your knock situation.. then see about adding timing and boost. I mean it has to be 100% inaudible.. plugs have no "peppering".. no puffs of black smoke out the tail pipes.. etc..

The use of an EGT may become invaluable for tuning what your doing. And some companies like Caspers sell knock sensor conversion kits.

HTH

 

[HUMBLE-U2]

meth

al, run 100% meth you can run 50/50. but everybody i know runs runs100%.you can pick up 5gals for 33bucks thur vp race fuels.no need for race gas 93octane&meth 25lbs of boost and counting

 

[PhilM]

I am a big supporter of EGTs - I've been able to troubleshoot all kinds of situations where the WB wont 'see'. With such a limited selection of tuning tools, you really should have them all at your disposal. Water mixes are pretty weird to get dead-on in my experience. I've tried all kinds of mixes and mixes with different alky types. Also whenever 'experimenting' with alky AND the engine tune from scratch, I like to run race fuel with the alky first. That way if there are problems they are less likely to harm things. Detonation is something I haven't heard in a long time... but even the detonation you cant hear is painful! Be careful!

I would definitely contact D.O. first. He will be able to provide the best interactive help for his setup. What size nozzle are you actually using?

Phil

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I also have a old muscle car and for some reason they all think it's only detonating if you hear it?? I have never heard my GN detonate and yet the scanmaster has shown over 15 degrees a few times

You could run a 50/50 mix if you mix it yourself to make sure it's 50/50. By the way, Pit Penn has -40 washer fluid which is as close to 50/50 as I have seen.

I believe most guys on here are now straight meth and rightfully so, guys like Razor have laid down the path of proof as to why you need to be a Meth head.

I plan on running Meth on my blow through 69 GTO and running anything less than a M15 nozzle is plain silly IMO on a big block with a huge turbo ( or twins ). BTW, running only 13psi with an intercooler and having 140 degree inlet temps on alky is not very good. I would switch to straight meth, inject more of it, raise the boost and maybe pull out a little bit of fuel to stay around that 11:0 ratio if it goes a tad fat ( probably won't with the added boost ).
Report back.

Razor post a pic of your Direct Scan screen with the inlet temps around 65 degrees!!!

 

[PhilM]

What have you tuned advance by? MBT? If, so I would not vary off MBT tune w/o alky/water until the other parameters were correct (i.e. enough alky is being injected based on your engine, NO knock, etc...) Oh, and I actually saw you were using an M12 (pays to read, eh!). To me, that seems on the small side if MAX pump pressures are 150psi for your setup? You'd have to re-confirm that with the dudes at D.O.

Another note I only slightly mentioned was regarding use of water... for me my AFR readings were NOT a reliable tuning parameter with water, making the use of an EGT extremely important. This is another reason why I started migrating from heavy H2O mixes.

Phil

 

[Allen Vos]

Hey guys

Sorry been busy the last few days, couldnt get a chance to post.

I picked of a 5 gallon pail of methanol and I am hoping to get a chance to
try it tonight or tommorrow night.

I guess I was trying to find out how close winshield washer fluid is to
a 50/50 mix of meth.

Im going to run it straight and hopefully I can achieve my 15 PSI and my 25 degrees of ignition timing.

I have been seeing tufts of black smoke from time to time under full boost.

I am assuming this is a sign of detonation????

Motor is still ok though.

Must help having forged pistons with good thick heads, good gaskets and ARP
headbolts

Thanks for all your input so far

Allen

 

[Razor]

Yup.. your detonating if you see the puffs.

 

[Allen Vos]

OK , finally got a chance to do this .

I ended up running the methanol straight.

I changed the injection nozzle to an M14 that I had , just to be safe.

It was a huge difference between running straight methanol and running

washer fluid.

I was able to get 15 PSI of boost and 25 degrees of timing. Aything past that

and I would start to get the tufts of black smoke out the tailpipes and a bit

of audiable detonation.

I ran my A/F ratio around the 11:1 mark under full boost.

The car felt very strong and I decided to take it to the track and see what it

would pull off. It was very hot out when I went (85 degrees and 75%

humidity) I had to drive 45 minutes to get to the track, so unfortunatly I got

it good and hot and likely heat soaked the intercooler.

Best ET was 10.409 @ 130.5 MPH with a 1.54 60 foot time.

Now air intake temperature was runnning around the 155 degree F with

the methanol and the intercooler which seems alarmingly high.

I let the car cool down for an hour and ran it again with temperatures still

in the 150 degree range.

I have a treadstone vertical flow bar and plate intercooler which flows 1400

cfm at .5 psi pressure drop. Its a very high quality cooler, so I dont think

I have any issues with a cheap cooler.

The only thing I can think of is the pair of t-3 (.60/.63) garrets I run

which may very well be at their limits and starting to blow hot air.

When I ran only 10-12 PSI of boost with this setup and 18 degrees of timing

without any methanol I ran Air intake temps of 130 degrees.

So I am thinking the added 3 PSI and 7-8 degrees of timing puts the turbos

out of their effeciency range. And the hot air is the reason I am so close

to detonation. The other reason I thought of is because my compression

is around 9.2:1.

Any thoughts on this one ?????

Any one here run a turbo out of its efficiency range and had a similar

problem??????


Thanks Again

Allen Vos

 

[Razor]

Think you need more methanol than your spraying. Better run a pressure test on the system at WOT see where your at.

I dont know what the DO system does, how it does, or ???? This is for them to answer. But your temps should be way way lower. Unless your not injecting enough meth.. then back to run a pressure test.

150 PSI on your nozzle would be a good starting point. Glad you see the immediate difference between washer fluid and straight.

 

[79Sleeper]

Allen,
I assume you have the .63 a/r t-coupe t3's? If so, people have gone 138 mph with cars similar to ours with these turbo's...who knows how far out of the efficiency range though. I think you will make more power with less timing and more boost if the turbo's can hang. I know Brian sharer was running 20-22 psi on ported windsor sr's. I'd bump the boost to 18-20, drop timing to 20-22 and spray more meth!


Troy

 

[Allen Vos]

As far as the Methanol Kit It is basicaly a shurflow 8300 series pump designed
to run on methanol and according to the caculator on the Devils own the M14
nozzle that I am using flows 14 GPH @ 100 psi. I installed a pressure gauge
inline and can see 150-160 PSI. So in reality I am likely flowing 16-17 GPH
across the M14 nozzle with the added pressure.

Now according to the Devils Own caculator and the guys that run the place This
is more than enough nozzle for what I am doing.

When I sprayed the methanol I had to cut almost 20% out of my fuel trim to
maintain an A/F ratio of 11:1.

I just found out today what my real problem is.

My compressor side of my turbo is way to small for what I want to do with it

It worked ok when I had the boost at 10-12 PSI and temperatures after the

cooler were in the 130 degree area on a hot day.

Now with the added 3 pounds of boost and the increased timing it makes the

turbos work so much harder and puts them out of their effeciency range.

I have been looking at the compressor map for the T-3 super 60 trim

and it is only effecient at no more than 250 HP and 18 PSI of boost.

So with twins on an 8 cylinder motor thats no more than 500 FWHP.

So anymore output than that out of these turbos they start to lose the

effecinecy and start to blow hotter air.

In my particular setup with 15 PSI and approx 625 FWHP that gives me

a pressure ratio of 2.02 and approx 33 lbs/min airflow, for half the motor

Apply that to the compressor MAP for the t-3 super 60 trim and you will

find that I am right off the Map

I talked to a local turbo shop and he agreed with me on this and suggested

that I get a couple T40B compressor housings with the V2 wheels.

This would match up to my t-3 center section and hot side.

Now when looking at the compressor map for the T40B V2

My numbers fit right into the center ring of the map which is the most

effecient area of that turbo.

So what this means is I can upgrade the compressor housings and run up to

20 PSI of boost with up to 37 lbs /min airflow which equates to approx

700 FWHP and still stay in the most effecient spot of the T40B turbo.

So with the methanol I should be able to get my intake temps well below

100 degrees, hopefully around the 70 -80 degree mark.


Appreciate all the imput so far.

I will keep you posted after I get my compressor housings upgraded.

Thanks

Allen