Need Help!!!!!

[tskdave]

Hello everyone, Dave here again.....I took my 85 GN to the mechanic. He had the car for over 3 weeks. Since I bought the car about 3 months ago, it has never ran right...no boost, no power, running extremely rich??? Now the bad news.... after picking up the car last night it runs even worse.Needless to say I have put a fortune in this car with no luck, I cant even drive it. This last stint cost me 750 dollars. Here is a list of new stuff on the car
new plugs, plug wires, fpr, Maf sensor, o2 sensor, tps, crank sensor, cam sensor, 87 coil and igition module, new radiator, 160 stat, electric fans. I dont know what to do now, Everything I tried has gotton no-where. I would like to know if the injectors and eprom are stock....but I have no way of telling????? I hate to buy new ecm and injectors....Any ideas???? Sorry so long....out of time and money. Thanks, DAve

 

[Jerryl]

....I took my 85 GN to the mechanic. ........... it has never ran right...no boost, no power, running extremely rich??? Now the bad news.... after picking up the car last night it runs even worse.

.......new plugs, plug wires, fpr, Maf sensor, o2 sensor, tps, crank sensor, cam sensor, 87 coil and igition module, new radiator, 160 stat, electric fans. I dont know what to do now ......

First things first ........ Unless you paid for parts and installation only …… If your mechanic told you he would "fix the car and it will run right", and it is still not running right, or worst as you say, find another one and get some of your money back.

The 87 Coil and ignition module are not plug and play. You need a jumper available through Caspers, or you can rewire it yourself (A pretty intense job IMHO)

With this, I have to start questioning the TPS, Cank and cam sensor settings, type of MAF, the FP setting, etc.

Do you have some kind of scan tool?

 

[buickpower]

like jerryl said, definitely go through and check the tps, cam and crank sensors. to do those you don't even need a scan tool, but it makes things easier and you can also tune the IAC. Lots of mechanics don't really know about the tweaking of sensors and how it affects these cars, some of them just bolt on parts. Get a voltmeter and use it to tweak the tps sensor, and set the cam sensor. then use an 8mm socket and a couple strips of matchbook carboard to set the crank sensor. Those are very common topics.

Could you describe in further detail the car's symptoms? Is it sputtering or stalling or it won't idle...? I would definitely make an unbiased, earnest attempt to eliminate ALL vacuum and exhaust leaks.

Also, is your fuel pressure regulator adjustable? If so, you need to get a pressure gauge and determine what it is with the vacuum line off.

 

[tskdave]

Yes, I have a t-link. Ibought the car everything was suppose to be stock......I dont know if it is. I have the caspers adaptor. Stock fpr, 38 pounds ad idle. Maf sensor is new, stock. T-link shows blms are high, says its running lean....but I dont think it is.....I cant keep the car running, stumbling and now small backfires...engine surges at idle. tps is set at .42 iac at 25. Cant seem to find any vacum leaks. shows maf at 8 at idle. I think he either put bigger injectors in the car , or changed the chip.... or both I dont know... I just hate to keep throwing money at it. any ideas would help. This is PAINFULL !!!!! Thanks, DAve

 

[buickpower]

surging at idle is often caused by vacuum leaks, and if your BLM's are high either you have vacuum or exhaust leaks. after i took an earnest look at my car and made an attempt to eliminate those, it ran much better

if the injectors were too big you would most likely get low blms, because they would be getting the same pulse width that a smaller injector would need, which would make it run very rich, and the computer would try to correct for that by pulling fuel. The chip however, it is hard to say, you need to get numbers from both the chip and injectors to really figure out where you are at.

 

[tskdave]

I have set aside all day to work on the car.... I dont know how much I should do without knowing about the chip or injectors???? Any part stores sell the gasket from the uppipe to downpipe(not on the turbo itself)???? What to do if I cant get the bolts off/loose??? sprayed with liquid wrench... Thanks for the quick responses, I need to get this running. Dave

 

[buickpower]

well searching for vacuum/exhaust leaks certainly won't hurt anything, i would especially check for cracked headers and leaks at the crossover. do the carb cleaner/propane test and a good visual one. get the numbers from the injectors and chip and try to id them on here. what do you mean from the up pipe to downpipe? They are not connected. let the bolts soak for a while with a good penetrant, alot of times a small torch to heat the bolts will burn the crap off the threads and make their removal easier. you have to heat them pretty good, (but not melt them) just don't burn anything in the engine compartment.

 

[Jerryl]

.....Maf sensor is new, stock. T-link shows blms are high, says its running lean....but I dont think it is.....I cant keep the car running, stumbling and now small backfires...engine surges at idle. tps is set at .42 iac at 25. Cant seem to find any vacum leaks. shows maf at 8 at idle.

Are you able to drive the car a bit to get the computer to re-learn the settings?
Did you verify the cam sensor setting?

Did you get a "new" or "reconditioned" MAF? There are numerous reports of bad reconditioned ones and MAF reading is a bit on the high side. How does it run with the MAF unplugged?

Stupid question.
Did you verify the plus wires to be in the correct place?

 

[tskdave]

Sorry for the wrong info, talking about the pipe after the turbo where they seal, right before the o2 sensor. I think I need a copper gasket there???? I dont think there is anything right now.. Thanks

 

[buickpower]

you must be talking about the passenger header to up pipe connection. Do you have the stock up pipe? To be honest i dont remember if the stocker had a gasket on it. I use a lead donut gasket that is tapered to fit over the header and into the up pipe. I just brought it to the auto parts and had them find one to fit. If it doesn't use a gasket, (can someone chime in here?) a smear of high temp copper rtv wouldnt hurt. well i have to go now, best of luck.

 

[tskdave]

yes, stock uppipe, I cannot start the car to give anymore info. I will be at it all day. Thanks for all the help allready...... Dave

 

[gn84guy]

Just a thought i just got my car back from the shop cause it had some running issues (i.e. stumbling and a rough idle). The shop replaced the crank sensor, and didn't help much. Then they replaced the cam sensor, and it ran worse then it did in the first place. So bad that they couldnt even drive it, and even had a hard time getting it started. They made a call to buick tech support, and they said that if you replace the cam sensor and crank sensor at different times they sometimes have a problem of shorting each other out. Well to make a long story shorter they replaced all the sensors again at the same time and it popped right off! Now it runs great! Except for a little bit of a knock problem...but thats another deal entirely. I dont know if this helps you any, but thought it could be usefull if all else fails.

-Robert

 

[FWD turbo]

Just a couple of questions for you:
Are you using an 87 ecm as well as coil? If so, when you did the conversion to the 87 ecm, did you add the air temp sensor? Also, you said that you replaced the MAF. Did you get an 87 MAF or 85? You need the 86/87 Maf to go with the 87 ecm. Might not be a stock chip in the ecm either. I know these things sound kind of small, but you might want to check and make sure that your mechanic used the right parts for your car.

 

[tskdave]

o.k. just replaced the spark plugs with new autolite 25;s. Got the car to start runs real rough. The old plugs were black. Then the car died again. The smell of raw fuel ...... same problem. I still use the 85 ecm, with 87 coil and moduale. Has new 85 maf sensor. Not using a mat sensor. I had to keep giving it gas to idle. My question is .... should I try a new ecm and chip??? Still cant tell what injectors are in. Idont know what to do first. any advice???? Also the car is getting about 6-8 miles to the gallon.....checked the oil, it looks real thin almost like it is mixed with gas.....not antifreeze????

 

[tskdave]

just found # on injectors hard to read so I think this is it 050 0280150248 any body know what these are???? 050 was on top other # on the bottom, all black no color on them also, Thanks, Dave

 

[cool 84]

Don't drive it with it running that rich. It will wash down the cylinder walls and contaminate the oil. If the oil is thin, change it even if you're just troubleshooting and not driving much. First thing is to find out which injectors you have and make sure you have the right chip. For what it's worth, I had to run a 43lb chip with my 60lb injectors for a short time. I had to back the FP off to 19psi in order to get the o2 to cross count and my BLMs were still as low as they could go. If you have something like 43s with a stock chip, your car should barely run like it does.

 

[tskdave]

just went to the store and bought a magnifing glass... here is the correct # off the injectors top it says 060 bottom # is o 280 150 248. Also on the turbo says M10 intake side, M21 exhaust side.....is this the stock turbo??? I appreciate all the responses and patients....... just trying to fiqure out what I have to work with.... Thanks again, Dave

 

[buickpower]

my stock turbo says m10 on the compressor and m26 on the exhaust, but you more than likely have the stock turbo, as i doubt anyone would swap the turbine section of a stock hotair turbo, and the numbers may have changed throughout production. Does it say A/R .63?

edit: I just found my stock injectors and they are the exact same number as the ones you have. helps to have stock parts lying around down cellar

 

[buickpower]

was just thinking, you may have injector(s) that are stuck open due to being really dirty, dumping fuel into the cylinders.
I also suppose it is possible that your fuel pressure gauge may be reading incorrectly, can you try turning down the fuel pressure and seeing what happens?

Try this: If you have an automotive stethoscope or a screwdriver or hammerhandle try putting it on each injector and listen for a clicking sound while running. If clicking, that means that it is opening/closing like it should. If not, then it may be stuck open. I realize that this may be almost impossible to do on the passenger side, so I would check all plugs after running for a bit to see if only certain ones are wet with fuel.

btw, usually autolite 24's are the correct heat range to use, but i doubt it will matter too much at this point, just for future reference

also have you found your prom chip number yet?

 

[tskdave]

here are the numbers on the chip(as best as I can read them)
On the front side(facing up)says CMM 1865 then 4359215S
back side says Philippines 8433 also G EV. Is this the stock chip???
Thanks for the info on the injectors, I thought they aftermarket . Dave