Is it just me,are these alky kits not taking advantage of after market ECU capabilities?

[troyk]

I'm looking at mega squirt for an ECU & looks like I could stage in alky injection. To me this seems like a lot better control than just blending in the alky till you get to full boost with some potentiometers & MAP sensor. To me these alky kits give me an unknown ratio of fuel/alky & so I have an unknown AFR target. I don't like that idea.

Am I missing something or off the deep end? Pls include links if I've missed something.

To continue on my research if I'm correct:
From my research so far, the alky control kit pump can be ran up to 60psi, right? Can it run at this pressure all the time or does it need to be shut off between boosts?
What is the max expected lbs/hr alky flow for a 2 nozzle system?
What ratio fuel/alky is desired?
If I were to mount a normal fuel injector on the intercooler pipe near the intercooler to the intake, would this work or bad location?
I would assume I would install a fuel pressure regulator, w/vac line, in line so I don't have to compensate duty cycle in the ECU, but maybe the ECU can compensate for boost changes?

So my example system would look like: Alky kit tank & pump + fuel pressure regulator + 500lb/hr injector(assuming ~50% alky to fuel, against 95lb/hr fuel injectors) staged in or controlled by MS.

So, any thoughts? am I off the deep end yet?

 

[we4Mateo]

The ratio your car needs is different than others. Some go 135mph or more with a single nozzle and some can't get past 120mph without duals. Bottom line is that the alky controller may not be full digital high tech with full ecm integration but it's consistant so once it's tuned right, you leave it alone. Logging alky pressure is more important than making the delivery method more complicated than needed.

 

[pacecarta]

your research is inaccurate

-the alkycontrol psi during a pass can be steady 135 psi - over 150psi


the alkycotrol pump can flow aprox 3 gallons per minute . it was designed as a RV water pump with enough flow for a shower /sink etc ..so add all the nozzles you want the pump wont run out.
im running two 10gph nozzles spraying methanol at 135psi at almost 30psi boost pressure with six 83# injectors at 67% duty pumping out 93 octane for 750hp ..your needs can and probably will vary

 

[murphster]

To address your question of adding an ECU controlled kit.... You have to think of the market. The alky companies need to make a kit that will work on a wide variety of systems. Most of the Buick kits are sold to stock ECU people I would think. So there are currently alky kits that need to be plug n play across a bunch of ECU types, and thats just for turbo Buicks.

There are fancier controllers out there that are based on fuel injector pulse width and so on, but they haven't been used in the turbo Buick scene much and are overkill for most of the applications. And I don't want to be the one to work out the bugs for us when the current systems have proven results and great support.

To do an ECU controlled system that is worth the hassle, the way to go would be a dual fuel system with direct port alky injectors. My thinking is something like a 12 injector harness with 6 extra smaller injectors for the alky. You need the second fuel system with second fuel regulator, harness, figure out which size injectors, custom intake, etc and to work out all the issues. To see the benefits you'd need a combo capable of running a good bit faster than high 9's as at this level the current kit works pretty well (for people who actually have a combo built to run that fast). And frankly most people faster than that level run race gas so its a very limited application. And when its all said and done its still unknown if there will even be a benefit over the current system. It would be really cool though.

 

[murphster]

The thing is, the MAP based alky blending just works well as a fairly simple add on kit. Once you've spent the big bucks to have a really fast 9 second combo, its a lot more hassle to keep an eye on a second fuel delivery system no matter what kind it is. Its so much easier to just do race gas and worry about the single fuel system. It takes a special kind of idiot to want to do it the hard way......

 

[pacecarta]

 

[troyk]

The ratio your car needs is different than others. Some go 135mph or more with a single nozzle and some can't get past 120mph without duals. Bottom line is that the alky controller may not be full digital high tech with full ecm integration but it's consistant so once it's tuned right, you leave it alone. Logging alky pressure is more important than making the delivery method more complicated than needed.

your research is inaccurate

-the alkycontrol psi during a pass can be steady 135 psi - over 150psi


the alkycotrol pump can flow aprox 3 gallons per minute . it was designed as a RV water pump with enough flow for a shower /sink etc ..so add all the nozzles you want the pump wont run out.
im running two 10gph nozzles spraying methanol at 135psi at almost 30psi boost pressure with six 83# injectors at 67% duty pumping out 93 octane for 750hp ..your needs can and probably will vary

Looks like Methanol is 6.59bls/gal, so ur flowing 131.8lb/hr, assuming these nozzles are at max flow at 105PSI. This is good info if I continue to go my route. This website discusses how to calculate the possible AFR http://rusubaru.com/tuning-afrs/

Everybody knows that nozzles don't flow at a linear rate as you increase pressure, right(thu the following website, claims they might be http://rusubaru.com/tuning-afrs/ )? Just because you double the pressure thru an orifice, it doesn't double the flow rate, unless your not near the nozzles max flow capacity, even then it is not truly linear. I hope these controllers compensate for the flow characteristics of the nozzles.

Does anyone know if injectors can take straight Methanol/water without failing from injector breakdown or do I need to find special injectors?

 

[delcowizzid]

When I looked at using extra injectors to spray meth it was bought to my attention that constant flow nozzles are the real only safe way unless you fit 6 port injectors or between pulses of the secondary injector cylinders arnt getting alky so one two miss a few pop pop poof tears lol hence I shelved pwm meth injection untill I can be bothered running 6 extra injectors

 

[murphster]

That link is useless for calculating the AFRs you need on alky. That may be the actual resulting AFRs once everything is known, but it doesn't matter. The O2 sensors measure lambda and its converted back to a gasoline AFR. The AFRs we run on alky have mainly been figured out by trial and error as the amount of power we can make is octane limited. So you are tuning for the AFR to use to get most power we can get away with, not the max power.

As far as the controllers compensating for flow, the comment doesn't make sense. The controllers are MAP based and increase the voltage to the pumps and pressure according to boost. They are not PW based like injectors. To do the injector setup, you need to go direct port and have a regulator so that the pressure difference remains constant to get full pwm control.

You can research about direct port setups as others have looked into it. And research people running 100% methanol too for the requirements.

The flow numbers for the nozzles are out there too and your numbers seem reasonable giving ~20% meth vs 80% gas. The problem with doing an injector setup is that you don't need 20% meth at low boost, only at higher boost. So unless you want to run 20% meth all the time, you need a second fuel table for the meth injectors. You can do this on Megasquirt but need some custom extra hardware that adds onto it (http://www.megamanual.com/DT.htm). I'm not sure if you can do it on XFI, which is what most people are using for aftermarket ECUs.

And like I stated before, I don't know if there will be a benefit unless you are running low 9s or faster. You would be able to control the alky precisely though, for sure. But having a secondary fuel system that you would need to keep an eye on wouldn't relieve any headaches. And we can log the alky pressure now each run, so we know if its working correctly and consistently.

Looks like Methanol is 6.59bls/gal, so ur flowing 131.8lb/hr, assuming these nozzles are at max flow at 105PSI. This is good info if I continue to go my route. This website discusses how to calculate the possible AFR http://rusubaru.com/tuning-afrs/

Everybody knows that nozzles don't flow at a linear rate as you increase pressure, right(thu the following website, claims they might be http://rusubaru.com/tuning-afrs/ )? Just because you double the pressure thru an orifice, it doesn't double the flow rate, unless your not near the nozzles max flow capacity, even then it is not truly linear. I hope these controllers compensate for the flow characteristics of the nozzles.

Does anyone know if injectors can take straight Methanol/water without failing from injector breakdown or do I need to find special injectors?

 

[Razor]

The biggest issue if mass of the pump. Meaning the motor itself to develop the pressure it does.. is large. So that means its response time is slow. So trying to manipulate it by changing voltage applied is like manipulating how much comes out of a garden hose by manipulating the valve at the wall of the house. Pressure simply cannot be changed fast enough.. like a fuel injector.
So the best that is done is simply try and give a constant amount based on boost and manipulate the fuel injector tables as those can have changes occur faster. With an aftermarket DFI its a piece of cake as wide band correction can offset. So if the meth is 25% of your fueling and the other 75 is from the ECU.. whalla.. problem resolved.
Few companies FJO and Coolingmist have tried making high speed solenoid valves.. but those worked great on paper.. and eventually failed in real world. Due to the issues with methanol.. sometimes from having users put the wrong fluids in the system.. and keeping the valves working.
My car at 3450 has run 8.5 at 162 on 93 octane. Twin 15 nozzles, 140 psi pump pressure, 348 with a PT4788 26 psi, 20 degree's of timing. Last March it ran an 8.66 3 run average on 93 octane NMCA True Street here in Fl. Hell I even run graphite head gaskets.
Look, i'm not by any means saying there isn't a better way... just that for the $$$.. there is no better way I know off...
I welcome anyone wanting to do something neater.. and would suggest you start with the current technology and see how far that takes you.. make changes.. then see how far that goes. Then you have a comparable data to go by. Simply starting with the complicated system doesnt serve any purpose. Just thoughts on a paper.
My XFI can technically control the meth pump using the boost controller tables.. but why.. why add the headache. I have som much other stuff i'm constantly chasing.. like 60ft, TQ converter slippage, boost controller ramping, etc etc etc
Comparable data.. I mean individual EGT's, AFR logging, time slips with temps recorded, etc.. I think getting into the 9's on the existing Buick system is incredible, ask me back in 03 when I started doing this there would be so many 9 second V6's.. I would have never believed it.
Paul and Murphster are perfect examples.. get to their level of performance and improve upon it.. then we are all ears

 

[34blazer]

The Dynamic EBL SFI6 has the ability to operate the Alky pump, when used with a Chrysler fan "relay." The relay(SSD) receives PWM from the SFI6, which drives the Alky pump, main way to tune is by a 3D MAP based table. The fan relay p/n is listed on the Dynamic EFI website and can be bought for cheap, or picked from the boneyard for cheaper. I bought the Devil's own basic kit on fleabay for around $200, upgraded to 14gph nozzle and the kit also came with a 300psi pump. Went to the boneyard and picked a couple of the upgraded relays for under 10 bucks. Initially the calibration ran the engine too rich, but now it's dialed in fairly close. No external boxes to tune, no additional wiring needed for a separate controller, and the SFI 6 logs the duty cycle so I can keep track of the pump operation. Now before I get flamed, I'm not knocking Alkycontrol's system, I think it's a great system.

 

[Phoneguy]

The Dynamic EBL SFI6 has the ability to operate the Alky pump, when used with a Chrysler fan "relay." The relay(SSD) receives PWM from the SFI6, which drives the Alky pump, main way to tune is by a 3D MAP based table. The fan relay p/n is listed on the Dynamic EFI website and can be bought for cheap, or picked from the boneyard for cheaper. I bought the Devil's own basic kit on fleabay for around $200, upgraded to 14gph nozzle and the kit also came with a 300psi pump. Went to the boneyard and picked a couple of the upgraded relays for under 10 bucks. Initially the calibration ran the engine too rich, but now it's dialed in fairly close. No external boxes to tune, no additional wiring needed for a separate controller, and the SFI 6 logs the duty cycle so I can keep track of the pump operation. Now before I get flamed, I'm not knocking Alkycontrol's system, I think it's a great system.

At what HP level is the car that you have been tested ? I can't see signatures on my phone. Is this a 12 second car or a 9 second car ?

Bryan

 

[34blazer]

At what HP level is the car that you have been tested ? I can't see signatures on my phone. Is this a 12 second car or a 9 second car ?

Bryan

Um, why? Kind of an odd question. Goal is mid to low 11's on this combo, maybe 10's. No dyno time, no track time as of yet. Fairly mild combo, 6262 turbo at 22 psi.

 

[Phoneguy]

Um, why? Kind of an odd question. Goal is mid to low 11's on this combo, maybe 10's. No dyno time, no track time as of yet. Fairly mild combo, 6262 turbo at 22 psi.

Why is it odd ?
Just wondering how much it has been tested with a high HP setup ?

Bryan

 

[34blazer]

Why is it odd ?
Just wondering how much it has been tested with a high HP setup ?

Bryan

I didn't understand what you were getting at. My bad

This is my first time using the ECM to operate Alky. Installed the alky system in my car in November '14 and have driven/tuned it 3 times since then. lol

So I am not much help of that type of data you need.

 

[murphster]

Thats pretty cool, assuming everything works great, it gives you basically a programmable ramp for the alky pump. You can do this pretty quickly with the alkycontrol controller with a tester kit and dial in a ramp with the available adjusters on the controller. The preset ramp works pretty well though so there's really no need to adjust it unless you are racing at the level where you can benefit from playing with it. Anyway, you should definitely be logging alky pressure so you have an idea of where to start on the ramps. Or at least have a way to test it.

But back to the OPs remarks, this still just controls the pump and is just an alternative way of controlling the same type of system.

 

[murphster]

So when its all said and done, your alky will come in like this..... not too early and not too late. Screenshots of actual logs from my last passes....

 

[34blazer]

Thats pretty cool, assuming everything works great, it gives you basically a programmable ramp for the alky pump. You can do this pretty quickly with the alkycontrol controller with a tester kit and dial in a ramp with the available adjusters on the controller. The preset ramp works pretty well though so there's really no need to adjust it unless you are racing at the level where you can benefit from playing with it. Anyway, you should definitely be logging alky pressure so you have an idea of where to start on the ramps. Or at least have a way to test it.

But back to the OPs remarks, this still just controls the pump and is just an alternative way of controlling the same type of system.

There are 7 other ADC inputs that can be utilized for a pressure sensor, and can also be logged.

Nice monitor^ Now that you have mentioned the pressure sensor, I need to get one since there is some of a delay before the pump starts to build pressure, even after priming the system, and the knock sensor picks up a few counts during the initial building of boost and pump DC. I can look closely at the datalog and find the areas of KR and right now I have been adding a little fuel, not alky DC, since WB reports a tad bit lean in that area. But I can see where it is needed. Thanks for posting that.

Sorry for the highjack. Thanks for the info Murphster


*edit* Like Murphster said, there are a few flavors for alky control(puny?) I will be honest, I think I'm the only one using the SFI 6 (right now) to control the alky injection, but, gotta start somewhere!

 

[Razor]

Understand also that a majority of folks don't want to mess with laptops and the trial and error involved with setting a pwm output to run something like this. The complexity added has a cost. Vs 3-4 hours latter your up and running down the street.
Case in point, boost controllers. There are some wonderful boost controllers on the market that can be programmed via a USB.. the downfall is the on the fly adjustment.

 

[34blazer]

Understand also that a majority of folks don't want to mess with laptops and the trial and error involved with setting a pwm output to run something like this. The complexity added has a cost. Vs 3-4 hours latter your up and running down the street.
Case in point, boost controllers. There are some wonderful boost controllers on the market that can be programmed via a USB.. the downfall is the on the fly adjustment.

Good point in regards to people not wanting to deal with a laptop or tablet.

There is a rough Alky DC% curve set in the bin, I have spent some time refining the 3D table and it may be included with the starter bin for the SFI 6, if not, I'm also happy to share data.

IMO, there is no added complexity added from a hardware stand point, instead of wiring and mounting a separate controller, a PWM fan relay is wired in. An optional test switch and wire to brake switch, can be wired to the ECM for priming/testing and reduced pump operation for launching at the track.

The time it took me to plumb in the alky system to running down LV Blvd was about 4 hours. I spent maybe 20 minutes setting the commanded AFR and pump DC before I could mash the skinny pedal, and feel safe. This is new for me and the SFI 6, so if someone wanted a system that has all the guess work completed, then Alky Control could be for them.