Huge improvement with idle...EGR block

[VadersV6]

Ive been working on the quality of my idle/gas mileage/smoothness for a long time. I had a million drivability issues. All the obvious fixes aside (vacuum leaks, injectors, fuel pressure, etc), the biggest improvements happened with 2 different things. Since I had installed the MSD 50's/extender/LS1 MAF/translator, I had a constant battle with BLM's and a rough idle. After I got the updated translator chip from Mike, I could now run no BLM offset, to get my BLM's in a good range. I used to have to take the BLM offset on the extender to zero or 1 to get in the 110 range. After the translator chip, I got BLM's in the 120-130 range with no offset. I was a happy camper. I did have to have my translator set to 10% lean at idle though. Yesterday I made an EGR blockoff plate. Normally I could machine something up at work, but I was at home, so i had to pull a MacGyver and use what I could. I grabbed a steel bar that was part of my old garage door opener, and cut it with a hacksaw to length, drilled a hole, and layed some sandpaper on the garage floor, and sand 1 face totally flat. I painted it up and installed it on the car. I pulled off all that unsightly EGR hardware and it really cleaned things up alot! Anyway, as hack as it sounds, it looks pretty good. I was thinking that even though the EGR valve passed the leakage test, that it may have been cross-talking between the 2 holes a bit. Cause if while it was idling....if I pulled up on the diaphragm at all...the slightest bit, the engine would almost die. I figured it must be already leaking if its that sensitive, and it would explain the always improving with work, yet still poor idle quality. Especially when the engine warmed up. Anyway, I didnt know the engine could idle this well. Accelerating moderately, the engine is as smooth as glass....I mean really really smooth. I come to a stop light, and the engine is no longer idling like it has a cam and bad plugs. It feels and sounds like a stock engine. I was even able to take the translator from 10% lean at idle, to the normal stock setting. Now I have no more offset adjustments with the chip and translator. My fuel pressure is set where full throttle speed says to have it, and my BLM's are rock solid on the nose.
So its just a message to anyone thinking of eliminating the EGR, who already has a chip that has it turned off....that you will not be disappointed. Its a great mod! Your EGR valve may pass a leakage test, yet still be cross talking.

 

[22lbChevelle]

Very interesting...I'll let you know if it helps me any when I make a plate

 

[QUIP'6']

http://www.buickgn.com/EGRcover.htm NICE PIECE

 

[83ttypecooled]

idle

Hi,
Who needs a glass steady idle, anyway? These cars have a little lump to them, and I like it! Automobiles being what they are,I think it is pretty much all the same s**t. By the way, I guess you are not in an emission testing area, 'cause the nox will hit the ceiling without a functional egr system. My car complies. I like that....

 

[ThikStik]

Thats good news. I too had a bad egr valve , bad in a way that I dont think anyone on this board, etc ever saw before. I had car for 3 years and was chasing hi wot o2s, and inconsistant boost. Anyway, egr valve was leaking to atmosphere. It was a vacuum leak at vac conditions, and boost leak when in boost. Egr wise, it was ok. A satisfying find that was very elusive. I also found intercooler leaking at the stack weld...Im sure it had been doing it all along my ownership and previous.

 

[83ttypecooled]

Hi,
Interesting! There's never a dull moment when it comes to turbo buicks! I'll keep that in my file of stuf that can happen....

 

[Paul Clark]

What about the EGR solenoid and the wiring that goes to it?
Did you remove it also?

 

[Boston GN]

http://www.buickgn.com/EGRcover.htm NICE PIECE

Yup, just got mine Saturday. Putting it in tonight

 

[VadersV6]

Hi,
Who needs a glass steady idle, anyway? These cars have a little lump to them, and I like it! Automobiles being what they are,I think it is pretty much all the same s**t. By the way, I guess you are not in an emission testing area, 'cause the nox will hit the ceiling without a functional egr system. My car complies. I like that....

I already have an extender chip, which shuts off EGR. So I figured why not pull it off, clean things up, and see if my theory holds any water. And it did. When i first got the car, it barely ran. In drive, it would die at every stop light. The engine shook so bad I thought the motor mounts would go, and that my interior panels would fall off. Its been a really long journey...making it run well. Every tiny little thing I did contributed a little to it running better. The word was passed along through different owners of my car that "it has a cam"...I know what cams sound like, and never bought it. I knew there was something wrong...lots of things wrong. A TR engine that cant idle at 1200rpm doesnt just "have a cam".
Very leaky intake gasket. Torn injector o-rings/tired injectors. Bad MAF. Cracked vacuum hoses. Stuck solenoids. Bad sensors. Bad plug wires. Cracked spark plugs. fuel pressure at 50lbs. ORIGINAL fuel filter. Bad ignition module. loose/broken crank sensor. Bad cam sensor. This list goes on for about 3 pages. I knew the car had lots of problems before I bought it, but I had backed myself into a corner, with needing another car right away. Its not a total loss though. Im actually glad I was forced to learn so much. Now I understand the car alot better than your average joe. After getting things to a good stock running level, now I can finish modding the car in a responsible way. Throwing go fast parts on a ****ed up car doesnt do anyone any favors.

What about the EGR solenoid and the wiring that goes to it?
Did you remove it also?

Yeah I just unplugged it and tucked that connector end under the ignition module. All the hoses and the solenoid, check valve, EGR valve...all that stuff is gone, and it makes things so much cleaner looking its crazy. I saw some other pics on here of others who did the same thing, and I was really impressed with how it opens everything up. I'm more impressed with how smooth it runs now. I thought I had tried EVERYTHING and didnt know what to do to get that last bit of improvement in running quality. This did it.

http://www.buickgn.com/EGRcover.htm NICE PIECE

Yeah those are nice, but I'm a machinist/CNC programmer by trade, and I'm thinking of designing my own plate in surfcam and machining something up really quick. Just cant settle on a design idea. I cant tell you how many times having my own machine shop has gotten me out of jams with my cars.

 

[QUIP'6']

I already have an extender chip, which shuts off EGR. So I figured why not pull it off, clean things up, and see if my theory holds any water. And it did. When i first got the car, it barely ran. In drive, it would die at every stop light. The engine shook so bad I thought the motor mounts would go, and that my interior panels would fall off. Its been a really long journey...making it run well. Every tiny little thing I did contributed a little to it running better. The word was passed along through different owners of my car that "it has a cam"...I know what cams sound like, and never bought it. I knew there was something wrong...lots of things wrong. A TR engine that cant idle at 1200rpm doesnt just "have a cam".
Very leaky intake gasket. Torn injector o-rings/tired injectors. Bad MAF. Cracked vacuum hoses. Stuck solenoids. Bad sensors. Bad plug wires. Cracked spark plugs. fuel pressure at 50lbs. ORIGINAL fuel filter. Bad ignition module. loose/broken crank sensor. Bad cam sensor. This list goes on for about 3 pages. I knew the car had lots of problems before I bought it, but I had backed myself into a corner, with needing another car right away. Its not a total loss though. Im actually glad I was forced to learn so much. Now I understand the car alot better than your average joe. After getting things to a good stock running level, now I can finish modding the car in a responsible way. Throwing go fast parts on a ****ed up car doesnt do anyone any favors.


Yeah I just unplugged it and tucked that connector end under the ignition module. All the hoses and the solenoid, check valve, EGR valve...all that stuff is gone, and it makes things so much cleaner looking its crazy. I saw some other pics on here of others who did the same thing, and I was really impressed with how it opens everything up. I'm more impressed with how smooth it runs now. I thought I had tried EVERYTHING and didnt know what to do to get that last bit of improvement in running quality. This did it.


Yeah those are nice, but I'm a machinist/CNC programmer by trade, and I'm thinking of designing my own plate in surfcam and machining something up really quick. Just cant settle on a design idea. I cant tell you how many times having my own machine shop has gotten me out of jams with my cars.

COOL THATS A NICE TRADE I WORK AT HUSSEY COPPER AND WE MAKE ALL COPPER HEAD GASKETS AND EXHAUST GASKETS JOHN FORCE IS ONE OF OUR BIGGEST CUSTOMERS

 

[VadersV6]

COOL THATS A NICE TRADE I WORK AT HUSSEY COPPER AND WE MAKE ALL COPPER HEAD GASKETS AND EXHAUST GASKETS JOHN FORCE IS ONE OF OUR BIGGEST CUSTOMERS

Yeah I dont work too far from John Force. I was actually thinking it may be cool to go work for him, given my experience. Ive owned many hot rods, 23 years working on engines, 7 years machining and building domestic/import engines/race engines professionally, and the past 8 years with CAD design, Surfcam, Edgecam (anything but Mastercam...that program is garbage but everyone buys it cause everyone else has it and they dont know any better...its like DOS for generating CNC programs), manual CNC programming (Heidenhain and Fadal/Fanuc G-Code) and machining parts of high complexity/tolerance, building robot integrated automation equipment with high mechanical complexity. I pretty much machine and build everything here. Plus his shop uses Fadal mills, which is the main CNC I use every day. I wonder how his employees are taken care of. This place is starting to suck more than anything that ever sucked before....a result of my old boss being bought out.

 

[QUIP'6']

Yeah I dont work too far from John Force. I was actually thinking it may be cool to go work for him, given my experience. Ive owned many hot rods, 23 years working on engines, 7 years machining and building domestic/import engines/race engines professionally, and the past 8 years with CAD design, Surfcam, Edgecam (anything but Mastercam...that program is garbage but everyone buys it cause everyone else has it and they dont know any better...its like DOS for generating CNC programs), manual CNC programming (Heidenhain and Fadal/Fanuc G-Code) and machining parts of high complexity/tolerance, building robot integrated automation equipment with high mechanical complexity. I pretty much machine and build everything here. Plus his shop uses Fadal mills, which is the main CNC I use every day. I wonder how his employees are taken care of. This place is starting to suck more than anything that ever sucked before....a result of my old boss being bought out.

with experience like that you shouldnt have any trouble finding a better job with a better atmosphere

 

[T4Texas]

Vader,

Did you do anything to block off the passage between the intake and the head, or did you just put the plate on the outside of the intake?

I'm only asking because I just put the plate on where the egr valve was and I'm still having a slightly rough idle/poor milage, and puff of smoke at start-up. I'm thinking about putting the valve back on (without the solenoid or hoses connected) to see if having the passage from the head to intake blocked (by the valve) will make any difference.

I've chased all the same things you mentioned fixing with the addition of a broken valve spring. It's running better than it has since I've owned it, but not as well as it could/should be.

 

[VadersV6]

Vader,

Did you do anything to block off the passage between the intake and the head, or did you just put the plate on the outside of the intake?

I'm only asking because I just put the plate on where the egr valve was and I'm still having a slightly rough idle/poor milage, and puff of smoke at start-up. I'm thinking about putting the valve back on (without the solenoid or hoses connected) to see if having the passage from the head to intake blocked (by the valve) will make any difference.

I've chased all the same things you mentioned fixing with the addition of a broken valve spring. It's running better than it has since I've owned it, but not as well as it could/should be.

I just put that little steel cap I made, right on top. The EGR valve just allows the exhaust from the head to enter the valve, and then routes it around and into the intake. If you just stick the plate on it, you're preventing the gases from being routed through. You need to make sure the cap doesnt lift up on the other end when you tighten the nut down. (sucks that it uses just 1 bolt on 1 end) Thats an inherent problem, and its probably best to use a little second plate on top to make sure the downforce is even, end to end. I used permatex "the right stuff". I swear by this goo. Its awesome. really thick, and hardens to rubber, unlike silicone, which seems to fall apart anytime oils get near it. This stuff would hold up to a nuclear blast. Anyway, I was sure to put this goo inbetween the 2 ports, to make sure the 2 ports didnt "cross talk". I do have a little issue with the other end of the cap lifting up a bit, but that permatex stuff is so thick and tough, that it seals everything just fine. It also holds up to the heat, even better than copper RTV. It may not be rated for that on the instructions, but experience shows it does work.
As far as your issues go, were you sure to cap off the vacuum tube that originally supplied air to the EGR? You may have other problems that you havent tracked down yet. I discovered my charcoal canister solenoid wasnt sealing every time I cycled it with a 12 volt power supply....thats 1 little suggestion out of many possibilities. But I would take the cap back off if I were you, and look at the silicone to make sure you were getting a good sealing patch. Then get some 80 grit sandpaper, lay it grit side up on the garage floor, or some table that's REALLY flat, and run the EGR cap back and forth on the sandpaper. Then take it off and look at the sanding marks. That will show right away if the cap isnt warped. If it is, keep sanding till its flat again, then put it back on with that permatex stuff, and make sure you dont have any lifting issues before you goo it up. Also, do not sand in a figure 8 motion like so many people recommend. You'll end up with a part with a convex surface. Just go back and forth in 1 axis, keeping the cap flat at all times. If you push down to hard, it will end up convex like the figure 8 does. Focus on keeping it flat, and dont push down too hard.
Aluminum softens, warps, and even begins to melt at temps above 800-900 degrees F, which is why I used steel. Exhaust gases are constantly blowing on that plate. Yeah, I know there are aluminum cylinder heads out there that dont melt, but thats a different world. There are many factors that keep the cylinder head from melting....conduction, convection and all sorts of happy theories to explain that.

 

[T4Texas]

Thanks for the good advice. I've been making incremental improvements for about three years like you have. I've replaced all the hoses, check valves, gaskets, etc and checked them with a hand-held vacuum pump, but I never tried cycling the charcoal canister solonoid. I'll add that to my list of things to do.

I'll take off the cap again and make sure it is sealed good between the two ports. I am using an aluminum one from one of the vendors, but when I installed it I used the little bracket that holds the egr valve on by placing a piece of flat steel across the cap so that the bracket would apply force to both ends of the cap. Like you said, it sucks that there is only one bolt to hold it down. I'll get some of the goop you mentioned as well.

I could probably live with the rough idle and low blms, and maybe even the bad milage, but that little puff of smoke at start-up irritates me no end.

It'll probably be the middle of next week before I'll have time to poke around under the hood, but I'll be sure to post back here when I do. Thanks again.

 

[Boston GN]

Quick question about the vacuum lines. Did you cap the hard line from the vacuum block?
I found when I removed everything last night I had a hard plastic line with an elbow open (runs from the PS fender area behind the coil packs) and the hard line from the vacuum block open. I just connected these two sources with a piece of vacuum tubing. Everything seems fine but if I could cap them with no ill effects, it would remove that one line and be even cleaner.
TIA

Also, is everyone using RTV or similar to seal the block off plate or did anyone go and get an EGR valve gasket instead? I'm using copper RTV now but just picked up a gasket. The guy gave it to me for free so what the hell

 

[turbodave231]

If you don't run EGR in your chip you are best to remove the valve. Not only do they cross-talk like you discovered, they also leak boost to atmosphere like crazy!

Pressure checking the intake with your intake valves closed is a great way to find small vacuum/pressure leaks. You'd be suprised what you'd find leaking. Every little it helps.

 

[VadersV6]

Quick question about the vacuum lines. Did you cap the hard line from the vacuum block?
I found when I removed everything last night I had a hard plastic line with an elbow open (runs from the PS fender area behind the coil packs) and the hard line from the vacuum block open. I just connected these two sources with a piece of vacuum tubing. Everything seems fine but if I could cap them with no ill effects, it would remove that one line and be even cleaner.
TIA

Also, is everyone using RTV or similar to seal the block off plate or did anyone go and get an EGR valve gasket instead? I'm using copper RTV now but just picked up a gasket. The guy gave it to me for free so what the hell

The vacuum line that runs from the passenger side fender to behind the coil packs, runs to a 3 port check valve. I left everything there in place. Check valve is still there, and needs to be there to protect the other thing its running to...dont remember what exactly. I just capped off the port on the 3 port check valve that used to run to the EGR. Also, the line coming off the vacuum block...I capped that off as well.
I think the EGR system they designed is ok (could be better, but its better than the FORD designs), but I think they dont last last forever. Even if you depress the daiphragm and stick your finger over the barb, and it doesnt move (showing the diaphragm is good), I think it still leaks in different ways. There is the cross talking I mentioned, and then the legit concern other people have about the exhaust backpressure pushing the EGR open. I mean what was GM thinking with that?!! They go to all this trouble of using a solenoid, a filtered bypass, and writing all this code to make sure it functions properly, and then you have nothing to prevent it from pushing open from backpressure....which it WILL cause this is a turbo car! Dumbasses! I tried at one point just pulling the vacuum line off the EGR valve vacuum bung, and putting a cap on it (idea was that if its not vented it will be harder to depress the diaphragm from backpressure), but it still moves really easily.
I could probably design an EGR system that works right, but it would involve alot of work. You may have to have a plate that mounts to the EGR surface on the intake manifold, with 2 lines coming off of it, running to an external EGR valve that has some sort of brass flapper valve to prevent boost from pushing it open. A small overboost bypass valve may work, but Id have to find something small that can also handle the heat. That way I could use a vacuum source to control the valving. But in the meantime, this is fine, and why bother, given my chip has it turned off anyway.

 

[jdsgnx]

Just a ?

I was to understand that you have to fill the EGR in with weld with the head off!!

the plate was to be used only to cover the hole in the intake when filled?????

thanks JD

 

[VadersV6]

The 2 holes in the intake are not connected. One hole goes to the heat riser passage in the head and the other goes to the intake. The EGR valve opens up and allows the exhaust from the heat riser to go around and into the intake. Before I did the block off, when I pulled up on the diaphragm at all while it was idling, the engine would almost die. When I let off, the engine would idle, but it wasnt the best idle. It made me think that it was leaking a little all the time. If what you said was true, my engine would not be idling worth a crap, and my BLM's would probably be off the map. My idle smoothed way out and my BLM's are great. There is no need to fill the heat riser passage. But without it filled, you do have ALOT of heat blasting on that plate, which is why I would never use aluminum. I'm going to machine something real when it stops raining, probably out of 303 or 416 stainless. Still dont know what kind of logo Im going to machine on the face though. Maybe I should make up some BS company name, like Polished Turd Racing or something. :tongue: Having a piece of a garage door opener bar on my engine doesnt make me feel very good about myself.