help crap master failed

[darkred87T]

Good luck with your conversion. I'm a little confused by your original post. You state that your Powemaster failed and in the same sentence that the pedal is low and the light comes on. Are you assuming the PM is bad for this reason or do you know for sure the problem is your power master? I apologize in advance if I misunderstood but otherwise a low pedal could be the result of a plethora of other issues with your brake system.

From my experience, a low pedal with light is almost always the sign of air in the system due to a leak somewhere. Just my 02.

 

[KL Mallender]

I agree with DR87T, a leaking rear wheel cylinder can produce the same complaint mentioned in original post.
Personally, I would fix the PowerMaster, any system that has lasted 23+ years and be tortured the way a Turbo Buick owner can and has, doesn't really deserve the bad reputation PM has been gifted with, but do as you wish concerning other types of conversion, just don't get caught with a dead engine at speed and need brakes, nothing will scare you more than a Hydroboost when the pump isn't turning, almost the same can be said for Vacumn, 1 or 2 pumps is all you have after engine quits, PowerMaster is the only system that does not depend on a running engine, I will admit that PM needs help in certain areas, but giving up on PM to put in obsolete thinking just to save a buck doesn't make a lick of sense to me, kinda like going back to a carburetor. good luck.

Kevin.

 

[Roger]

I & a buddy tried vacuum with less than satisfactory results.

I went with hydroboost.

I'm in the process of getting my lifetime warranty pm replaced & have been over 30 days & still no warranty replacement. My buddy may have to also go to hb due to pm availability.

 

[sinister87GN]

Good luck with your conversion. I'm a little confused by your original post. You state that your Powemaster failed and in the same sentence that the pedal is low and the light comes on. Are you assuming the PM is bad for this reason or do you know for sure the problem is your power master? I apologize in advance if I misunderstood but otherwise a low pedal could be the result of a plethora of other issues with your brake system.

From my experience, a low pedal with light is almost always the sign of air in the system due to a leak somewhere. Just my 02.

Thank you for the post you may be right i am assuming the pm was bad i never had very good braking power and i never here the motor in the pm come on pedal goes to floor most of the time after pump the hell out of it light goes off i do have new everything in brakes but the car sits for long times also the pm looks like it is rotted i would like to keep it but every one on this board bashed pm's to death so i guess i assuming its bad any way to tell 4 sure

 

[turbonut85]

I agree with DR87T, a leaking rear wheel cylinder can produce the same complaint mentioned in original post.
Personally, I would fix the PowerMaster, any system that has lasted 23+ years and be tortured the way a Turbo Buick owner can and has, doesn't really deserve the bad reputation PM has been gifted with, but do as you wish concerning other types of conversion, just don't get caught with a dead engine at speed and need brakes, nothing will scare you more than a Hydroboost when the pump isn't turning, almost the same can be said for Vacumn, 1 or 2 pumps is all you have after engine quits, PowerMaster is the only system that does not depend on a running engine, I will admit that PM needs help in certain areas, but giving up on PM to put in obsolete thinking just to save a buck doesn't make a lick of sense to me, kinda like going back to a carburetor. good luck.Kevin.

This is completely false. The Hydroboost has an internal accumulator inside the housing to give power assisted pumps after the engine stops. Why not save several hundred bucks now, (AND later) by switching to a better, more reliable system?? (By later, I mean when the crapmaster falis---WHILE the engine is running, and with NO warning---and you smash that front end into something.) At least with the HB and even the vac setups, you know something is a foul when the engine quits....The PM IS obsolete...it was only used from late 85 to 87...HB systems are in use today on most GM heavy-duty trucks...which need good, powerful brake systems. Just some facts....not trying to flame.... ---Keith

 

[KL Mallender]

I don't worry about flames from the un-informed, yes, Powermaster was only used on Turbo Regals for 2 model years, but was on quite a few different models of GM products, the biggest problem PM has is the lack of understanding mechanics have while working on them, you call it junk and I don't care, I stand by my earlier reply to Sinister87GN's original thread question, which might not even be a PM fault, could be a small leak somewhere else causing his troubles.
You are correct that GM's HD line uses HB instead of PM or Vacumn, how many HD vehicles are abused enough to kill their engines? most never see the high side of 4000 rpm in gas applications.
My point could be answered by anyone with a video camara in a converted car and doing a 60-0 stop with the engine off and posting it on YouTube for others to see before they make their decision. -end-

Kevin.

 

[turbonut85]

I don't worry about flames from the un-informed, yes, Powermaster was only used on Turbo Regals for 2 model years, but was on quite a few different models of GM products, the biggest problem PM has is the lack of understanding mechanics have while working on them, you call it junk and I don't care, I stand by my earlier reply to Sinister87GN's original thread question, which might not even be a PM fault, could be a small leak somewhere else causing his troubles.
You are correct that GM's HD line uses HB instead of PM or Vacumn, how many HD vehicles are abused enough to kill their engines? most never see the high side of 4000 rpm in gas applications.
My point could be answered by anyone with a video camara in a converted car and doing a 60-0 stop with the engine off and posting it on YouTube for others to see before they make their decision. -end-

Kevin.

I guess I will just see my "un-informed" way out of this thread....Kevin seems to have all the answers....sorry I blew up.

BTW...make sure you post up in the parts for sale section when that PM fails....with the engine running....I can always use another parts car...

 

[cruzn57]

Ah, you guys from Iowa......

sure are touchy,
to each there own I say, do what works for you, not someone else!

OH, BTW, I have over 3000 ac in Iowa, near Ft Dodge, so watch it buddy! LOL ( an no I don't live there, to much snow!)

 

[sinister87GN]

stop the madness it is very clear you guys know lot more about PM & HB then I so please help me NOT TOTAL MY CAR it is true that the brakes suck a big fat one all info i get from you guys is good i think i just did not want to make mods to a brake system but if its the best thing for the GNs is there a sure fire way to test pm

 

[whitehot1]

stop the madness it is very clear you guys know lot more about PM & HB then I so please help me NOT TOTAL MY CAR it is true that the brakes suck a big fat one all info i get from you guys is good i think i just did not want to make mods to a brake system but if its the best thing for the GNs is there a sure fire way to test pm

This may help.

Powermaster Diagnostics

 

[darkred87T]

Eh, follow the link provided above. :redface:

 

[turbonut85]

sure are touchy,
to each there own I say, do what works for you, not someone else!

OH, BTW, I have over 3000 ac in Iowa, near Ft Dodge, so watch it buddy! LOL ( an no I don't live there, to much snow!)

Not sure what this has to do with brakes....or why I should care....but, good for you, I guess....I'm watching it.....that's all us un-informed, back-yard-mechanic, farmers from Iowa know how to do..eh??


It's too bad a guy can't disagree with another guy's opinion, tell the guy he means no harm, without said guy calling him "un-informed". Then some other guy posts something like this: "I have 3000 ac in Iowa, so watch it buddy!" What the hell does that mean anyway??

stop the madness it is very clear you guys know lot more about PM & HB then I so please help me NOT TOTAL MY CAR it is true that the brakes suck a big fat one all info i get from you guys is good i think i just did not want to make mods to a brake system but if its the best thing for the GNs is there a sure fire way to test pm

Sinister87GN, I do agree with the above poster that you either have air in the brake side of the PM, a leaky wheel cylinder or caliper, or an internal leak in the master cylinder itself. The air and wheel cylinders you can fix for cheap...the master cylinder is another story. Nobody offers a rebuild kit for just the master cylinder alone....you have to buy the whole thing as a unit....for around $500-$600. I have sunk alot of $$$ into a PM before just like most guys here. I found a NOS GM rebuild kit for one for $100, then had to buy a $190 acc ball for it, all was good....for about 2 months....then I sat at a stoplight, and the pedal started to fade away....internal leak, again. Fixed that, only to have the pump motor crap out 2 weeks later. I dropped more than $350 into the PM...and it STILL didn't work. For $250, I bought all new HB parts, and it has been trouble free for almost a year now. All the parts bolt right on like the factory, with no permanent mods to the car or firewall. All I was trying to say earlier, before I was accused of being "un-informed" Is you can fix the PM, and it may work fine. Problem is, you won't know for how long. That was just not a chance I was willing to take. Some guys have been lucky, and it has worked for them. I was not. I converted, and couldn't be happier with the HB. Good luck. ---Keith

 

[whitehot1]

I did the vac. brake conversion 8 years ago with new parts from the auto parts stores with lifetime warranty, i have never had to use the warranty yet.

The only used part i had to use was the brake pedal from the local salvage yard.

This is the best cost effective and most reliable brake system to have on our cars and parts are available and cheap if for some reason yours has a problem.

Also if you have a failure of some type with the vac. system, you will in most cases still have some use of the brakes.

If the PM goes out more likely than not you won't have any type of braking because the pedal will be as hard as a rock.

 

[Blown&Injected]

Hi all my crap master AKA power master messed up today i get a very low pedal and my brake light comes on i know alot of you convert to hydro boost systems but dont want to play around with that stuff should i try to repair stock pm or put a vac system in dont want to cut or mod any part of brake system/firewall does any one make a vac system as a kit ??? i dont know why gm used a pm if a vac system works any info will help

I have had more master cylinders fail then Powermaster systems. Once every 10 years/100K miles - I will keep my Powermaster.

From your tone, it sounds like you are another parrot that thinks that is a bad record - so just go with some big clunky vacuum system.

 

[SPOOLN6]

BMACKINNON

"Once you go vac, you won't go back!"

Thanks for the good laugh. You got me rolling this morning.

Enough said.

 

[darkred87T]

I just hope the OP spends some time making sure there aren't other issues with his brake system before spending all the time and money to not fix the problem. Just my 02.

If you read the Diagnosis link from GN Type.org there is only one case where you can have a low pedal associated with a failed Power Master and that's if the combination valve is the issue. Any other failure like a bad pressure switch or acc. ball will cause a hard pedal. I think some pepole confuse the issue. If the power assist function of your power brakes fail most likely it will cause a hard brake pedal because you no longer have the power brake function assisting in your braking ability. Much like if you lose vacuum to your vac brake set up it will cause a hard pedal condition.

 

[bmackinnon]

I did the vac. brake conversion 8 years ago with new parts from the auto parts stores with lifetime warranty, i have never had to use the warranty yet.

The only used part i had to use was the brake pedal from the local salvage yard.

This is the best cost effective and most reliable brake system to have on our cars and parts are available and cheap if for some reason yours has a problem.

Also if you have a failure of some type with the vac. system, you will in most cases still have some use of the brakes.

If the PM goes out more likely than not you won't have any type of braking because the pedal will be as hard as a rock.

This is my experience also.... couldn't have said it any better... although you DO still have some brakes with a failed powermaster... but the pedal is even harder than a vac setup with no vac.... takes a STRONG leg....

 

[jdpolzin]

I agree with DR87T, a leaking rear wheel cylinder can produce the same complaint mentioned in original post.
Personally, I would fix the PowerMaster, any system that has lasted 23+ years and be tortured the way a Turbo Buick owner can and has, doesn't really deserve the bad reputation PM has been gifted with, but do as you wish concerning other types of conversion, just don't get caught with a dead engine at speed and need brakes, nothing will scare you more than a Hydroboost when the pump isn't turning, almost the same can be said for Vacumn, 1 or 2 pumps is all you have after engine quits, PowerMaster is the only system that does not depend on a running engine, I will admit that PM needs help in certain areas, but giving up on PM to put in obsolete thinking just to save a buck doesn't make a lick of sense to me, kinda like going back to a carburetor. good luck.

Kevin.

Wow, not sure where this info came from but I've turned my motor off probably close to 10 times while driving to see how well the HydroBoost reacts with no assist and I've always had brakes. Actually the brakes act the same way as they did when I tested my vacuum set up the same way. I've had 4 failed PowerMasters one with a 34K mile car, one with an 86K car, one with a 57K mile car, and one that had 130K on it. Everytime they failed, the pedal was stiff as a board and luckily they all failed at low speed and not in traffic. Either the vac or the hydroboost is a much better fail safe way to stop your car.

 

[jdpolzin]

sure are touchy,
to each there own I say, do what works for you, not someone else!

OH, BTW, I have over 3000 ac in Iowa, near Ft Dodge, so watch it buddy! LOL ( an no I don't live there, to much snow!)

I wrote a responce to this but I had to come back and rewrite it because I have no need to play your games. And yes, when you call people names, they do get TOUCHY. You should have learned that a long time ago. We are here to give input on each others experiences with our cars. Keith and I have both taken a lot of time and spent a ton of money testing, rebuilding, and price searching for different components so we can give solid input on this topic. If your ever back in Iowa visiting your 3000 acres, let us know, we'll show you how well our car stops. If your statement was some sort of threat, I doubt any of Iowa guys are worried.

 

[buttonfly]

Hydroboost worked for me. Good luck with whatever you choose.