Has anyone converted their car to FULL time propane or natural gas?

BlackMagic

New Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2003
I am wondering if anyone has converted their TR to a full time propane car? I know a lot of fleet trucks and other vehicles have conversions to run on propane or natural gas setup.

It seems like this would be a great setup, as propane and natural gas have a research octane number of 130 and should be perfectly suited for a turbo car.

Why is this not a popular or discussed option?
 
The whole problem with converting a TR believe it or not is the EPA. You would think that they would love to have people converting to cleaner burning fuels, but the laws don't make it easy. In order for someone to set up a kit to do it would require them to also test it on X number of vehicles and run them through rigirious testing then submit the data to the EPA for review all at their own expense. If approved then they can profit off of selling kits for that specific vehicle/engine combination.

Simply converting a vehicle to propane without using an approved kit is considered emmisions tampering.

On a bright note, there is a company that makes liquid propane injectors along with all the other parts (other than a chip to match the injectors) needed to convert it yourself. It is a "plug and play" kit for newer GM trucks that doesn't require any computer modification or reprogramming. They also convert all the Schwans trucks so there are quite a few vehicles in use with that kit.
 
Hmmm, I may have to look into those injectors and kit. That might be a fun project for an "off road" vehicle.

Thanks
 
Could you post the name of that company? The main advantage IMO of full time propane, is that you would need only one injector at the throttle. No need to worry about fuel distribution when the fuel is already a gas.
 
I'm a licensed propane fitter and with boost I don't think your could supply enough fuel.

Trust me, your car would feel like it lost 100+ h/p on straight propane.

Just my .02

Mike
 
Do a search for LPEFI, it will give you all the info available. Bi-Phase is company that produces the system and is a subsidiary of Schwans foods. Unfortunately there isn't much actual info available on the net and you will end up having to do alot of e-mailing to get anything specific about hte injectors like flow rates etc...
 
I read that link and the system he has is almost identical to what forklifts use.

Very basic and easy to do on a carbed engine.

I would love to see this liquid injector set-up.
 
I think the whole propane=lower power thing is a result of implementation, not the properties of the fuel. By my calculations, you should at least make the same power, more likely more power, if the AFR is controlled as well as it was with gas, and the timing is maximized to run with the propane.

Propane, 21591 BTU/lb
Gasoline, 18400 BTU/lb

Stoich AFR
Propane, 15.7
Gasoline, 14.7

21591/15.7=1370.637 Btu/lb of stoich air:fuel mix
18400/14.7=1251.701 Btu/lb of stoich air:fuel mix

Propane certainly wins there. Other cosiderations, propane displaces air. Gasoline, when vaporized, does the same. But, gasoline is laregly injected as liquid into the cylinders. Which is a good thing if you think in absolute terms of oxygen getting into the cylinder, but a pretty bad thing for the quailty of the burn. Gasoline doesn't burn, gas VAPOR does. You have all these droplets, and the vapor around them burns. The end result is that not all the fuel gets burned. There is some left over. This is probably why gasoline makes most power far richer than stoich, even when it should in theory make max power when there is a perfect mix of oxygen and fuel. The extra fuel is needed, as some never finds any oxygen. With throttle injected propane vapor, you have a near perfect uniform mixture in the cylinder during combustion. The flame propagates through the mixture quickly and evenly. Max power is probably much closer to stoich.

Add to that almost perfect cold starting, without the need for lots of warm up enrichment (which is needed as a cold engine makes gasoline vaporization even poorer). Also consider the lack of any liquid fuel in the cylinder, no wash down on the cylinder walls, and oil that stays clean for 10,000 miles.

Propane rocks as a every day fuel.

I think I found the correct devise to control the vapor. A proportional control valve. I doubt it would work with any type of stock ECU, something with a programmable fuel map would be needed. A little electronic circuit to convert the injector signal into a fixed high frequency (>250hz) PWM signal. In my case, I'll probably have a duel inlet, single outlet solenoid before it, to cycle between propane and methanol. Injection point just before the throttle, with some sort of diffuser to aid methanol vaporization. BTW, the car will have no intercooler, so under boost when the methanol takes over, it's going to vaporize quite rapidly. The methanol tank will be a second propane cylinder, kept under pressure from the first, and draining out the bottom. Dual fuel systems through one control, requires only 1.5amps to run (vs 35A for low impedance injectors and a fuel pump), no pumps, single line to the front, quite nice. Certainly very KISS.
 
Well shot down the proportional valve idea. #1, the things are too damned expensive ($500 for what I need). #2, converting the injector signal is much easier said than done.

New idea. Liquid propane injection through a single injector pointed at the throttle.

Problems, solutions:

1. At the high pressures of propane, a standard low impedance fuel injector won't open. Standard peak and hold is 4amps, 1amp. I have read, that they will operate just fine, if you use a injector driver than does 8-16amps open, 1amp hold. Seems to be reasonable.

2. Propane boiling. The toughest part about liquid propane is getting it to stay liquid from the tank to the injector. If it warms up in the line or injector, you get vapor in the line, and the flow of the injector drops 10x, and the car sputters dead. Bi-phase uses the approach of keeping the injection pressure above the vapor pressure by use of a booster pump in the tank, thereby keeping the propane liquid in the lines. My idea, is rather to run a small 12V air compressor into the propane tank, to keep it at 150psi, even as I allow the propane itself to cool to about 50F in operation (where it's natural vapor pressure is only 78psi), before activating any kind of heater. This would allow as much as a 40F increase in temp between tank and injector and still maintain itself as a liquid.

Sound like a good plan?

UPDATE:

On second thought, it might be wiser and easier to use CO2 and a regulator to keep the pressure at 150psi. Pressure will be more steady, won't have to worry about hot air (with oxygen) getting mixed in the fuel, will help cool rather than heat up the propane, won't have any problems keeping up like a compressor might, won't use up any power, and won't make a bunch of noise.

I calculated the density of CO2 at 150psi at ~1.26 lb/cu ft. For a 5 gallon (20lb) cylinder, that's about .84lb of CO2. So I can use the little 20oz bottles that paintgunners use. Haven't figured the additional cost, but I don't think it's much. CO2 is pretty cheap.
 
What about freezing?

Propane regulators work the best when they're hot from engine coolant.
 
Originally posted by 1 rare t
But,...........Normally a propane cylinder has about 325 psi of pressure.
How would you get it lower and keep it steady?

What about freezing?

Propane regulators work the best when they're hot from engine coolant.

Propane cylinders are not normally 325psi, my tank in the TTA has never read more that 170psi when full and about 100psi on a cold day (cold is a relative term when used in Arizona).

As for freezing and a regulator, that is what BiPhase has going for them since they inject it as a liquid and the heat of the intake keeps from freezing the injectors.

I personally think it would rock if someone could get ahold of Bi-Phase and figure out a kit for the LC2 engines, not like someone couldn't burn a chip for it which would be the only LC2 specific thing needed other than a tank that fits (not completely specific).
 
Sorry, I was thinking about blow-off pressures.

375 on a cyl. , 250 on a tank mounted outside the vehicle.

At 100 * F propane pressure is 172 pds.
 
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