gerotor front cover update

Cool. I'll be really interested in hearing how the oil pressure does when she's finished.

TurboTR
 
Kendall,
If you get that cover to work you're going to be solving a bunch of problems with running a stage motor. I can't wait to hear how it works.

Paul Thompson
 
RK, yes, it's a 3800 lower cover half with the crank driven gerotor pump.

Paul, I think I might put this first one on my GN's stock block motor just to see how it does...I hope to weld it tonight. It's jigged up on the block and sitting in the back of my truck right now.
 
Originally posted by 10SV6
Kendall,
If you get that cover to work you're going to be solving a bunch of problems with running a stage motor. I can't wait to hear how it works.

Paul Thompson
Click to expand...

I have one that was made by Ruggles in the early 90s on my stage motor and it works great. It was on my old stage 1 Ruggles engine. It is now on my Bill Anderson built stage 2 block. Great oil pressure. You will like it Kendall. Easy on the front cam bearing, no driving the oil pump. Easy to put in the crank sensor.
 
Originally posted by Bobtempest


I have one that was made by Ruggles in the early 90s on my stage motor and it works great. It was on my old stage 1 Ruggles engine. It is now on my Bill Anderson built stage 2 block. Great oil pressure. You will like it Kendall. Easy on the front cam bearing, no driving the oil pump. Easy to put in the crank sensor.
Click to expand...

Seeing Bob's was what convinced me to go ahead and try one. :)

Well, it's all one piece as of tonight.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/frederik32212/lst?.dir=/hybrid+front+cover&.src=ph&.order=&.view=t

Looking at the pics it will be obvious that I'm in no danger of being declared a master sheet metal shaper. Fortunately, a good welder can make up for a so-so fitment job, and I had a good welder helping. :) I still have to hit the gasket mating surface now that it's cooled and unbolted from the block. There's zero apparent warpage from the welding; I'm happy.

The next part is to machine the balancer hub with flats to drive the pump; it's either that or use an early FWD chain and sprockets, which I'm going to investigate. (Bob H. or Bill A., any input?)

Sort of funny story: I was working on it tonight at the welding shop; a guy stops, curious, and I explained what I was doing. He says, "Seems like a lot of bother for just a V6". I asked him what he had and he told me he was working on a 352 (I think) Ford big block. I told him that my V6 should make about 3 or 4 times the HP of his 352. I think he left thinking I was deranged. :cool:
 
Kendall,
He will not think you are deranged long at the track. It looks good. I use a Buick hub with flat machined on the sides to go into the pump. I have a spacer (about a 1/4" thick) to keep the regular lower timing chain gear snug.
 
Looks good Kendall.I like the idea.Makes sound sense.It would be nice if "someone" could produce these on a limited basis for us guys.Maybe it could be a regularly produced part for all the Buick guys,stage or not.Make a pattern up from the model and get them machined on a production basis.I'd by one for sure,especially for my new Stage setup[thanks Gene,you da' best].
 
question

Wehre is it gonna pull the oil from and where is the oil gonna to into the block? Doesn't the stage block have to be machined to accept an "internal" oiling system like that? Working on the FWD 3800's I've often thought that it would be a great idea to do what you are doing Kendall. Looks good so far. Keep us updated.
 
Originally posted by KendallF





Sort of funny story: I was working on it tonight at the welding shop; a guy stops, curious, and I explained what I was doing. He says, "Seems like a lot of bother for just a V6". I asked him what he had and he told me he was working on a 352 (I think) Ford big block. I told him that my V6 should make about 3 or 4 times the HP of his 352. I think he left thinking I was deranged. :cool:
Click to expand...


We are all deranged, considering nothing has changed since the conception of this car.:)
 
Re: question

Originally posted by QKRNYRS
Wehre is it gonna pull the oil from and where is the oil gonna to into the block? Doesn't the stage block have to be machined to accept an "internal" oiling system like that? Working on the FWD 3800's I've often thought that it would be a great idea to do what you are doing Kendall. Looks good so far. Keep us updated.
Click to expand...

It has the same pickup and feed passages to the block as the stock cover. If this one does go on my Stage block, it will be tapped for AN fittings for feed and suction. I actually have a wet sump pickup S2 on-center block, but I'm not sure if I'll use the internal pickup passage or not. I definitely won't use the stock feed, as the S2 block has a "tower" for this purpose in about the same spot as a stock block's turbo oil return.

If I put this first one on my stock block, it will pick up and feed the block just like a stock cover.
 
That looks awesome! My main question is how do the FWD engines get their cam positioning signal since they dont have the cam sensor that the SFI 84-87 turbo engines do. Will running the cam sensor on say an 87 with out the oil pump drive shaft affect anything? What about the oil filter mounting area. I know the FWD engines never have the oil pressure issues that the RWD engines do/have. Definitely keep us up to date on this.
 
Interesting question that I think I can answer.It should rotate more smoothly and acurately,giving you better signalling.Distributors with high volume pumps are prone to "spark scatter" due to pulsations coming up the drive.I can see no reason that this system should not benefit from the same lack of effects as well.
 
Got any picture of the inside after welding? How flat did it stay ? I might have to make one myself because it makes alot of sense:)
 
Kendall,

A couple ideas for you: The 3.8 fwd VIN B&3 engines 86-88 used a gerotor pump with a two flat drive. They shared the same timing chain, and cam gear as the VIN 7 engine. If you can't use the whole crank gear, maybe you could machine off the gear and shorten the nose on the balancer (use just the flat portion of the part.

These same engines used a cam sensor in the front cover. A magnet was bolted to one of the Cam gear bolts and passed by the sensor to trip the Hall effect switch. This style cam sensor will work with our application Vin 3&B used the same ignition module, and coil pack (in some applications). They also used the type II delco sys too.

Maybe you could eliminate the stock cam sensor as well??!!!!

What are you planning for controlling cam walk?

Very cool project, wish I could TIG weld!!

Dave
 
Interesting.I was just wondering to myself how Kendall maintains alignment of the CS bore in the top half of the front cover when he welds it.The above would seem to bypass the whole deal altogether.
 
Originally posted by GNVAIR
Any updates on this yet Kendall? I am axious to hear how it works. Let us know.
Click to expand...

I have not welded the back side yet...maybe this week. :) I have been on travel again, and I spent 6 hours last Thurs. night trying to make mandrels for the deck milling machine only to screw up and have to throw my work piece away...grrr.

You really appreciate the prices people get for precision tools and fixtures when you try to make one.

Originally posted by Radius Kid
Yeah,shake a leg will ya'.We're alll kinda anxious here.
Click to expand...

Well, send me a few thousand in development $ and I'll get right on it! :D

Originally posted by Geno
Got any picture of the inside after welding? How flat did it stay ? I might have to make one myself because it makes alot of sense
Click to expand...

It stayed very flat so far...the test will be when I weld the back. Geno, if you make one, it'll probably be better looking than mine and make me jealous. :)

Originally posted by turbodave231
Kendall,

A couple ideas for you: The 3.8 fwd VIN B&3 engines 86-88 used a gerotor pump with a two flat drive. They shared the same timing chain, and cam gear as the VIN 7 engine. If you can't use the whole crank gear, maybe you could machine off the gear and shorten the nose on the balancer (use just the flat portion of the part.

These same engines used a cam sensor in the front cover. A magnet was bolted to one of the Cam gear bolts and passed by the sensor to trip the Hall effect switch. This style cam sensor will work with our application Vin 3&B used the same ignition module, and coil pack (in some applications). They also used the type II delco sys too.

Maybe you could eliminate the stock cam sensor as well??!!!!

What are you planning for controlling cam walk?

Very cool project, wish I could TIG weld!!

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave, those are good points! I have been wondering if there was a motor that used that pump setup without using a balance shaft. I will check out the timing chain/gear setup and see if I can just use it. I am going to try and eliminate the cam sensor if possible, maybe with a 2 sensor crank hub (if TurboTR ever checks his out for me... :D). The cam walk will be controlled with a torrington bearing setup (billet roller).

Originally posted by Radius Kid
Interesting.I was just wondering to myself how Kendall maintains alignment of the CS bore in the top half of the front cover when he welds it.The above would seem to bypass the whole deal altogether
Click to expand...

The cam sensor bore in the top half is unchanged from stock...it was bolted down to the block and used the alignment pins for location. I'd still like to get rid of the cam sensor if possible though.

I have too many things to get done for one guy with a full time job who travels, 2 kids, a wife in school, and a 2 car garage. :p
 
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