Fiscus Gets The Shaft

I still don't see where OC did anything wrong. It sounds like the track did something wrong. Has anyone talked to OC? It was said Dave's car never moved. If OC had time to pull up to the light and stage, then 15 seconds goes by and he still hasn't moved .I know me personally, I would have thought Dave was broke, especially if the starter didn't signal me to shut down.

I am learning alot from this thread though.:) Is there also a 15 second rule if both are pre-staged and one of the cars lights the 2nd bulb? I can see alot of problems there with guys waiting 13 seconds before tripping the second light while the other guy has been spooling the turbo for 13 seconds.
 
uuummm yeah, that's what is called a "burn down" and any good racer would do it to you if you staged and started building a bunch of boost......
 
I would have thought Dave was broke, especially if the starter didn't signal me to shut down.
On a positive note the big block guys on friday nite they ran out I think it was GSE FINALS (sorry if im wrong)You wont belive this one of the opponents car would not start he was from ST LOUIS AREA .He was Racing a Guy From CALIFORNIA. Sorry, Jim You probably know both of them.
The guy from CA. turned his car off in the burn out box and waited for his opponents car .Someone brought a Battery pack up and they barely got it to start up.As they both got in the Burn out box his car Died again as their just was not enough juice to run the ignition.The opponent From California looked over and saw he was still having some trouble and turned the key OFF again !
As this was goin on DAVE DAY had a Battery Pack in his front seat to run his laptop for Turbolink .He unhooked it .went over and they popped the trunk hooked it to the battery and it cranked and cranked and cranked for about 20 seconds it seemed like.It was flooded.Just then he tried it one more time it Fired WOW.they left the battery pack connected praying it would not come disconnected on the launch and secured it as best as possible.
The other guy started his bad big block and we had a RACE.They left and it was great .the Dude from California lost by a real close margin But he was a real WINNER in my Book .THAT IS SPORTSMANSHIP:cool:
 
Originally posted by EightSecV6
...I doubt you will see it enforced at most tracks but if you get double bulbed, you can request the starter to back the other guy out. It has happened to me twice at ETown when I used to race the GN vs. Mustang shootouts.

I didn't know that you can ask the started that. I'll have to keep that in mind in case some mustang tries to get the jump on me :)

-Banning.
 
yup..

That was Bruce Kent from CA driving Dave Benisek's Apollo. Dave was the original racer of my GS in 1972. These two guys personify the meaning of CLASS. I expected to hear that, knowing them both as I do... It is an honor being close friends with them. Dave, Bruce and I are very tight friends.

Now, if the track did not use Auto-Start, then OC can't be faulted. But ...there is NO EXCUSE not to run the A-S on a Pro Tree for racing, the RIGHT way. Shame on the track, or the director, or both.

J
 
Originally posted by BUICK528
Okay guys, this is the way it is supposed to work..

That is, if they used the Auto-Start like was supposed to be used, for Pro Tree racing.

I am going to state this one time only..

He who double bulbs in a Pro Tree Auto Start, before the opponent first bulbs, is a DQ racer.

That's it, plain and simple.

The Auto-Start was NOT turned on if the opponent got the red eye.

Jim

Someone should be yelled at if every race weren't run this way. Staging both bulbs is being a prick. If your driving a low 10 second car and don't know the proper way to stage then your wrist strap should be torn off.
 
someone said it was done throughout the NATS. It should have been brought up earlier, not during the finals. So anyone know why Dave's car hadn't even moved while the other car was staged?? Maybe waiting for water to be laid at the water box, line lock wouldn't engage?? Seems like there is more to the story. I would say if OC did a 2 sec burnout ran right through 2 lights, etc...but how could Dave's car not even be approaching the lights after at least 20 seconds. Can someone please give more details.
 
Okay, this IS the way it is supposed to work.

The tree is ACTIVATED to START when the bottom bulb in either lane is lit. There is an adjustable variable timeframe that is adjustable in the tower computer from 1-15 seconds, before the red eye will light, IN THE STAGING PROCESS..

Say the computer is set at 12 seconds default and AutoStart is ON, when the first racer lights his bottom bulb and the opponent has only the top bulb, the opponent has 12 seconds to light his bottom bulb or the opponent goes red. We used 10 seconds at Bristol, as I have ZERO tolerance for burndowns.

NOW, if AutoStart is used, and either racer double bulbs b4 the opponent first bulbs, then the offending racer gets the big DQ.

If AutoStart is NOT used, then either racer CAN double bulb (VERY unsportsmanlike) to start the tree, and the opponent better damn well hurry up...

Jim
 
First I'd like to say to everyone that I had a GREAT time at the Nats this year, especially since my car made it on the trailer on saturday under it's own power.
The racing was good and I went a 8.85@157.85 in less than ideal weather conditions.
Concerning the final with me and O.C. :
He did double bulb me but that was OK with me because I prefer to be the one to come in last on the lights. My car spools pretty quick so its not a problem for me. When I came out of my burnout he was staged and I proceeded directly to the line. I didn't try to burn him down and I didn't take a long time either. As soon as I staged my car the red light came on in my lane. Shortly after that the tree activated in his lane and he took off with the green light.
My car did NOT move and I was given the red light. This was NOT O.C.'s fault. Something must have malfunctioned with the tree, computer, or whatever.
I was told to go back to the line because of what happened and I did. Everyone that came up to me said the same thing and agreed that something went wrong. O.C. was called to the tower to tell him what happened and he appologized for the double bulb and even offered to split the first and second place money. We couldn't rerun the race because on that pass O.C. had car problems and couldn't go again.
The way I look at it is that our Buick community is pretty small(and it seems to be getting smaller every year) and there is no sense in being upset at O.C. , the GSCA , or even the track for what happened. Sometimes life gives you lemmons and you've just got to make lemonade.

Dave Fiscus
 
Originally posted by GNSCOTT
I still don't see where OC did anything wrong. It sounds like the track did something wrong. Has anyone talked to OC? .................

No one did anything "wrong" from what I saw standing between the cars at their rear. Dave's car did not move, Auto-Start was on as I checked this with the tower. No answer is known why the red light came on.
 
hmmm

Nick, I spoke to Brockmeyer (who designed AutoStart and BG's timing system) personally, concerning this after BG last year. The SAME thing happened last year, and the year before that too... just because your time slip says it's ON don't mean so. Brockmeyer stated emphatically to me and he tells every track out there that uses his system (99%) that it is IMPOSSIBLE unless it is turned OFF to have what happened...happen.

As usual, Dave takes everything in stride, so no hard feelings.

J
 
Re: hmmm

Originally posted by BUICK528
Nick, I spoke to Brockmeyer (who designed AutoStart and BG's timing system) personally, concerning this after BG last year. The SAME thing happened last year, and the year before that too... just because your time slip says it's ON don't mean so. Brockmeyer stated emphatically to me and he tells every track out there that uses his system (99%) that it is IMPOSSIBLE unless it is turned OFF to have what happened...happen.

As usual, Dave takes everything in stride, so no hard feelings.
J


Jim, I went immediately to the tower to check and the AutoStart was on. There are other possibilities, but we will never know for sure just exactally what happened.

But as usual, the racers involved were very mature about this incident and handled it in a very professional manner. For as many cars that went down the track in 5 days of the event, it was amazing how few "incidents we had. Unfortunately, this happened in a final round elimination of a very exciting class.
 
hmm

Nick, there ONLY two scenario's that could have happened.

1) They TOLD you the AutoStart was on, when in reality it WASN'T,
and the starter flicked his switch, or the time delay timed out after O.C. staged. Unless YOU looked at the setup screen yourself, and saw the OFF toggled....

2) If the AutoStart WAS turned ON, then as soon as O.C. double bulbed, his side would have gone AUTO-RED. Obviously, it WAS NOT turned on.

No if's, and's, or but's about it...

Fiscus ain't worried, so water under the bridge.

J
 
Well, if you look at any timeslip from Saturday you will see the indication on the slip that the Auto Start was ON. See http://www.gnttype.org/tsm/media/TSMslip.JPG

What everyone is looking over is the possibility of something else causing the light to go red (i.e. something else causing the beam to be re-connected). Smoke, a turtle (I like that one), a piece of aluminum foil floating around etc. I do have the run on video and you can see that Dave was fully staged when the lights came down on OC's side. Yep...that's racing.:rolleyes:
 
Re: hmmm

Originally posted by Scott231
Well, if you look at any timeslip from Saturday you will see the indication on the slip that the Auto Start was ON.

From above:
Originally posted by BUICK528
Nick, I spoke to Brockmeyer (who designed AutoStart and BG's timing system) ... just because your time slip says it's ON don't mean so.
 
First, let me say I'm relieved that neither Cal H. nor his car suffered serious damage when the head failed. I didn't make the Nats this year due to severe engine damage in March at a H/U race. I wanted to help keep TSO alive, but couldn't. I'm a GSCA member, although I do tend to not be as gracious as others in the situation under discussion.

A case study: at that March race this year, Autostart was ON and functioning. We were told at a drivers meeting it would be used, and what the various parameters were. As noted above, one of the paramaters is always that both cars must be prestaged before either may light the bottom bulb. You can be harsh, and have the program set for automatic DQ for doublebulbing, or have "manual" control of that function, and wave the guy out of the beams and give a second chance (which is what was done). Maybe failure of the latter scenario (manual oversight) is what happened in TSO. Other variables are at the discretion of the race director. There were many fast turbo cars at that March race, and no one was complaining about a level playing field, even though the ambers flashed a variable 0.800-1.200 seconds after both cars were staged.

Without rules (or without enforcing them), we've seen it's a race for some guys to finish their burnouts and rush to the line, stage and spool, whereas others may bump in my mistake. In the absence of rules (or enforcement), it shouldn't always be up to the personality of the guy who got bulbed to determine how the situation is handled. That diminishes the integrity of the results in my opinion, and leaves a nagging concern (with me, at least) about how future transgressions will be handled. The Nats provide a relaxed environment, most leave their Type A personalities at home, some rarely race competitively during the year, it's a vacation for most in attendance, and no one wants to spoil the party. But I'm really sorry to see this type of thing persist. After participating in one of either TSE/TSO/Q16 from 2000-2002, I've been telling people that all that's needed is Autostart and an authoritative starter to ensure that it is functioning - and to step in and rule when it doesn't. If the intent was indeed for Autostart to run the show, then that's a big step in the right direction. I hope to be back next year.

How was the track prep - or is that better off addressing in another thread?


Art
 
Bob, I had the track attendant drag his mop across the lights in a grudge match with a blown 94 LT1 camaro. Needless to say i lost that race thanks to him.
 
Originally posted by JoyOf6
....... After participating in one of either TSE/TSO/Q16 from 2000-2002, I've been telling people that all that's needed is Autostart and an authoritative starter to ensure that it is functioning - and to step in and rule when it doesn't. If the intent was indeed for Autostart to run the show, then that's a big step in the right direction. I hope to be back next year.

How was the track prep - or is that better off addressing in another thread? Art

Since major races are run using AutoStart, would think it is a good thing for the GSCA event also.

As far as track prep, since I did not hear any of the fast car driver's complain, don't even think need another thread is needed! We had it right for them all week.:)
 
As one of the many who witnessed the final with OC and Dave, I have to say that both racers acted very civil towards each other after the race. But the events leading up to this weren't too sportsman like. What I mean by this is OC double-bulbed before Dave was finished with his burn-out. Dave did not drag his feet during this time. This caused Dave to do something uncharacteristic in his normal routine......he rushed into the staging beams. When he did this, OC's lights came on and Dave got an immediate red light....... no lights even came down on Dave's side of the tree. Dave's car never moved once it turned on both lights. Auto-start must have been in " manaul mode ". This is where the situation could have been easily resolved by the starter, the tower, or a GSCA official. Not one of the officials stepped up to the plate. Word came down that it was going to be all up to Odell, whether he wanted to run again or not.
Now behind the tower when Odell came up to talk to Dave about this, he did apologize for the double bulb. He also offered to split first and second place winnings with Dave. Dave declined saying he did not want to win in that manner and took the runner-up spot after Odell said his car would not be able to make another round.
In my opinion, what should have happened is the tower should have called both cars back to the staging lanes and re-ran the finals, it should not have been put in the hands of one competitor to decide. Someone mentioned earlier that something might have tripped the staging beams on Dave's side. Well it just so happens the smoke from the burnout was blown by a slight breeze toward the tree. This might have tripped the stage lights, who knows.
This double bulb situation was dicussed on the GSCA bb months prior to this event. Art Freeman asked this exact question and I never saw a real response other than saying it was not suppose to be allowed. After all, majority of the guys racing in TSE, TSO, and Q-16 know what double bulbing means and what the consequences are suppose to be. These guys all race alot at there own local tracks. By the way, this isn't the only incident of double bulbing in this class elimination for that day. Round one Dave gets double bulbed by the Dynotech car. Tony Gomes is double bulbed by the blue car ( Bill from Champion Heads ). Both times nothing was done.
One last thing, I may seem a little biased toward Dave since he and I are really good friends, I've helped a little on his car and been to alot of races with him. I just think things should have been a little more fair.

I'm off my soap box......................Ken Hagood
 
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