fast files
- Thread starter tyerfryer
- Start date
Craig Smith
That was easy!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
OK everybody, I think this thread is a good place for me to raise a point.
Chasing other people's tuneup files down almost defeats the purpose of buying a programmable engine management system. If you just paid a couple grand for the setup, it is my opinion that you should roll up your sleeves, get in there and start getting your money's worth!
Here's a true story...
I was at Comp Cams last week. Part of what I was doing there was going over some of the basics of the FAST system for some of the folks there, and part of what I did was run through an initial startup routine with the Mustang they had on the Power Tour the last couple years. I took the file called "demo.gct" included with EVERY system we sell, changed the info in the "fuel calc parameters" section to 358 CID, 1 bar MAP, 41 lb injectors, and 8 cylinders. I added some cranking fuel (since the injectors are half the size of the ones used when this file was created), I hit the key and it fired right up. It was a tad rich, but idled rather nicely!
A starting point is usually closer than you may think. But when it comes to the time when you are ready for the real tuning, the whole idea here is to tune it to your own combo. Your chances of finding a tuneup file from someone else that would be as good as the one you can (and should) create for yourself are slim to none! I'd dare say that if I asked for a file for a Yates 358 Ford and got 20 files sent to me, not a single one would be as good as the end result of a thorough tuning session on the car. The fact is that no tuneup file floating around the internet was created for your car... I truly believe that you will spend more time searching for "something close" than you would spend nailing it down yourself and getting it just right.
I don't mean to sound like I'm yelling at anyone or talking down, and this post is not directed at any one person. It just happens that here is where I have decided to voice my opinion on something I see a lot, and not just on this message board. I'm just trying to say that I honestly believe that you'll never be 100% satisfied with something that someone else sent to you.
Chasing other people's tuneup files down almost defeats the purpose of buying a programmable engine management system. If you just paid a couple grand for the setup, it is my opinion that you should roll up your sleeves, get in there and start getting your money's worth!
Here's a true story...
I was at Comp Cams last week. Part of what I was doing there was going over some of the basics of the FAST system for some of the folks there, and part of what I did was run through an initial startup routine with the Mustang they had on the Power Tour the last couple years. I took the file called "demo.gct" included with EVERY system we sell, changed the info in the "fuel calc parameters" section to 358 CID, 1 bar MAP, 41 lb injectors, and 8 cylinders. I added some cranking fuel (since the injectors are half the size of the ones used when this file was created), I hit the key and it fired right up. It was a tad rich, but idled rather nicely!
A starting point is usually closer than you may think. But when it comes to the time when you are ready for the real tuning, the whole idea here is to tune it to your own combo. Your chances of finding a tuneup file from someone else that would be as good as the one you can (and should) create for yourself are slim to none! I'd dare say that if I asked for a file for a Yates 358 Ford and got 20 files sent to me, not a single one would be as good as the end result of a thorough tuning session on the car. The fact is that no tuneup file floating around the internet was created for your car... I truly believe that you will spend more time searching for "something close" than you would spend nailing it down yourself and getting it just right.
I don't mean to sound like I'm yelling at anyone or talking down, and this post is not directed at any one person. It just happens that here is where I have decided to voice my opinion on something I see a lot, and not just on this message board. I'm just trying to say that I honestly believe that you'll never be 100% satisfied with something that someone else sent to you.
blownvette
New Member
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2002
That is why the selling dealer is your source for support. Where did you buy your system.
Well said Craig.
I also agree that the original manual left a lot to be desired. The manual included in the wp software is better.
I had no luck getting much help from the dealer that sold me my system. They refered me to another dealer that happily sold me a file for 75.00. I can safely say that after tuning for my setup, very little of my current file resembles any of the original with which I started. This supports your point about trading files.
I feel that most people (including me when I got started) are a little intimidated by the idea of computer controlled engines and overwhelmed by the number of adjustments this system will allow you to make. But once you break this down and understand how each function relates to a carb or the distributor timing/curve, it is no longer a dark science. This, and a couple other forum sites, are great sources of info for odd problems or to bounce ideas off others with more knowledge than you.
The key is not be afraid to make changes. I save my current file as my "base" file and make changes. Since this is a real time system you will know if it was a good change or not so good. if it was good, I save that as my new base file.
If I screw up and get way out of adjustment, I just reload my "base" file. and start over.
which I have been known to do a "couple" times in the last 2 years.
I also agree that the original manual left a lot to be desired. The manual included in the wp software is better.
I had no luck getting much help from the dealer that sold me my system. They refered me to another dealer that happily sold me a file for 75.00. I can safely say that after tuning for my setup, very little of my current file resembles any of the original with which I started. This supports your point about trading files.
I feel that most people (including me when I got started) are a little intimidated by the idea of computer controlled engines and overwhelmed by the number of adjustments this system will allow you to make. But once you break this down and understand how each function relates to a carb or the distributor timing/curve, it is no longer a dark science. This, and a couple other forum sites, are great sources of info for odd problems or to bounce ideas off others with more knowledge than you.
The key is not be afraid to make changes. I save my current file as my "base" file and make changes. Since this is a real time system you will know if it was a good change or not so good. if it was good, I save that as my new base file.
If I screw up and get way out of adjustment, I just reload my "base" file. and start over.
which I have been known to do a "couple" times in the last 2 years.
Ricky Trussell
New Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2003
Craig I can see both sides of this thread. I am not a "basher of the FAST system, I actually like it.
Saying that I will add:
It would not be stretching to say the manual sucks. I understand that new products are the way to a more profitable business. But there has been a need for a more complete manual for a COUPLE OF YEARS. Why has this taken so long?? If your statement is true about self tuning there should already be one.
I guess the rumor that there will be maps pretty much dialed in for different engines in the future is not true then?????
Saying that I will add:
It would not be stretching to say the manual sucks. I understand that new products are the way to a more profitable business. But there has been a need for a more complete manual for a COUPLE OF YEARS. Why has this taken so long?? If your statement is true about self tuning there should already be one.
I guess the rumor that there will be maps pretty much dialed in for different engines in the future is not true then?????
T66Typhoon
SUV Pimp
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2003
I have started this up the same as everyone else here... I got a system... started playing with it and asking questions.
With some help from this board and www.syty.net and some off line help from board members, I was able to get mine nearly perfect with about a total of 6 hours of work.
I don't understand why or how someone would put 15k into a motor and then 2k into a computer system and not have the slightest incling of how to get it running. Everyone wants everything spoon fed to them.. I am not siding with either here.. I am just saying that before I went out and bought my system... I went to the track.. asked who was using the system, asked who was willing to help me tune it, ask what types of issues they had, etc.
This was not directed at anyone, just if you purchase a system, while I agree the manufacturer should help you, your distributor better know how to get you up and running and from my experience there are more than enough people who are more than willing to give their time to answer questions and help out.. this was my experience anyway.
This forum and the guys in both the SyTy and GN community are the ones selling these units and helping people get them running... I am greatful to have the help... I was very excited to get it installed.
As a general rule people are so afraid they are going to "fry" a motor... it is much harder to do than you think... before you go out and just put your foot to the floor, tune part throttle with moderate timing and you would really have to try to tear something up... tuning WOT on this FAST system with the WB was the easiet part of it.... literally anyone can do it. The part throttle stuff is where the knowledge is needed and you are not going to tear up a motor driving it 2500 RPM at 30% throttle around town.
The jist of it is.. don't be scared to learn and use that an excuse.. there is someone near you who can help.. if a vendor is not helpful.. DON'T BUY FROM THEM
Just my $ 0.02 worth..
With some help from this board and www.syty.net and some off line help from board members, I was able to get mine nearly perfect with about a total of 6 hours of work.
I don't understand why or how someone would put 15k into a motor and then 2k into a computer system and not have the slightest incling of how to get it running. Everyone wants everything spoon fed to them.. I am not siding with either here.. I am just saying that before I went out and bought my system... I went to the track.. asked who was using the system, asked who was willing to help me tune it, ask what types of issues they had, etc.
This was not directed at anyone, just if you purchase a system, while I agree the manufacturer should help you, your distributor better know how to get you up and running and from my experience there are more than enough people who are more than willing to give their time to answer questions and help out.. this was my experience anyway.
This forum and the guys in both the SyTy and GN community are the ones selling these units and helping people get them running... I am greatful to have the help... I was very excited to get it installed.
As a general rule people are so afraid they are going to "fry" a motor... it is much harder to do than you think... before you go out and just put your foot to the floor, tune part throttle with moderate timing and you would really have to try to tear something up... tuning WOT on this FAST system with the WB was the easiet part of it.... literally anyone can do it. The part throttle stuff is where the knowledge is needed and you are not going to tear up a motor driving it 2500 RPM at 30% throttle around town.
The jist of it is.. don't be scared to learn and use that an excuse.. there is someone near you who can help.. if a vendor is not helpful.. DON'T BUY FROM THEM
Just my $ 0.02 worth..
Craig Smith
That was easy!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
My whole point is not to emphasize that file searching is bad, but rather to encourage people to take advantage of what any programmable EFI system lets you do.
If you are uncomfortable with anything, you ABSOLUTELY should call your dealer for help. If they can't or won't help you, they aren't worth your business and shouldn't be selling systems and you can tell them I said so.
I won't be around a computer until next week after posting this, but please give me specific examples about what is lacking in the manual. "It sucks" really isn't a valid complaint.
This is assuming we are talking about the help files in the Windows software, which are still being updated currently. I would agree that the little booklets we used to send out aren't terribly helpful in figuring out how to put it together and use it. More of a reference manual than an instruction manual.
If you are uncomfortable with anything, you ABSOLUTELY should call your dealer for help. If they can't or won't help you, they aren't worth your business and shouldn't be selling systems and you can tell them I said so.
I won't be around a computer until next week after posting this, but please give me specific examples about what is lacking in the manual. "It sucks" really isn't a valid complaint.
This is assuming we are talking about the help files in the Windows software, which are still being updated currently. I would agree that the little booklets we used to send out aren't terribly helpful in figuring out how to put it together and use it. More of a reference manual than an instruction manual.
OK Craig, here is an analogy for you, as I think you are standing too close to the trees to see the forest. Mind you this analogy is off the top of my head and after reading this post I kind got a bit upset.
IBM comes out and sells a computer with a couple of programs loaded in. They tell you all the wonderful things that you can do with this box, add subtract, multiply, write letters, make databases. Included with the box is a manual that tells you where to turn it on, where to plug it in and some of the nifty features it can do, like F5 is delete and crap like that. What it doesn't do is tell you how to use it, give any examples of how to trouble shoot it if you have problems or even where to start. It just says when you use a computer your life will be so easy cause you can do all kinds of wonderful things with it. Just turn it on, get your hands dirty and start playing with it. That sounds like bulls*t doesn't it.
Well IBM, at least show me somehow, all the wonderful things it can do, TELL ME WHERE TO START, and give me some CLUE what to do when I run into common problems.
Wouldn't it be nice if computer manufacturers or Microsoft told you why you get all those blue screen errors, or why you have a failure at kernal 32993485873, or why this or why that.
My point is that most folks looking for a similar file are simply looking for something that will get the fuggin car started. They don't know the demo may get things going. How the hell would they know that? Of what the base demo program is set up for. How the hell are they supposed to know that? Some are looking for a file that they can be farily certain won't blow the motor up when they pull out of the driveway the first time. For MANY users loading up the software and going through the screens is akin to a hog looking at a watch!
I have been talking with a guy that just put a FAST system on his 8 second car the past couple of weeks. He is no newbie when it comes to getting the most out of a tuneup. He is also not at all adverse to getting his hands dirty. He is a top ranked NMCA guy. He is also a computer programer. We spent a long time just discussing what a pulsewidth is.
Now, for the point of taking the time to tune it yourself, well that gets to the lack of useful information included with the Fast purchase. As to your example on tuning that mustang with the demo program, how the hell is a newbie supposed to know that would work and what tweaks should be made? The person is going to invest $10,000 in a motor and assume the demo program should work? I would hope not. You know cause your so close to it it seems simple.
Not slamming. Just telling the story from a user standpoint and trying to get you to step back a bit into a newbie/novice shoes.
IBM comes out and sells a computer with a couple of programs loaded in. They tell you all the wonderful things that you can do with this box, add subtract, multiply, write letters, make databases. Included with the box is a manual that tells you where to turn it on, where to plug it in and some of the nifty features it can do, like F5 is delete and crap like that. What it doesn't do is tell you how to use it, give any examples of how to trouble shoot it if you have problems or even where to start. It just says when you use a computer your life will be so easy cause you can do all kinds of wonderful things with it. Just turn it on, get your hands dirty and start playing with it. That sounds like bulls*t doesn't it.
Well IBM, at least show me somehow, all the wonderful things it can do, TELL ME WHERE TO START, and give me some CLUE what to do when I run into common problems.
Wouldn't it be nice if computer manufacturers or Microsoft told you why you get all those blue screen errors, or why you have a failure at kernal 32993485873, or why this or why that.
My point is that most folks looking for a similar file are simply looking for something that will get the fuggin car started. They don't know the demo may get things going. How the hell would they know that? Of what the base demo program is set up for. How the hell are they supposed to know that? Some are looking for a file that they can be farily certain won't blow the motor up when they pull out of the driveway the first time. For MANY users loading up the software and going through the screens is akin to a hog looking at a watch!
I have been talking with a guy that just put a FAST system on his 8 second car the past couple of weeks. He is no newbie when it comes to getting the most out of a tuneup. He is also not at all adverse to getting his hands dirty. He is a top ranked NMCA guy. He is also a computer programer. We spent a long time just discussing what a pulsewidth is.
Now, for the point of taking the time to tune it yourself, well that gets to the lack of useful information included with the Fast purchase. As to your example on tuning that mustang with the demo program, how the hell is a newbie supposed to know that would work and what tweaks should be made? The person is going to invest $10,000 in a motor and assume the demo program should work? I would hope not. You know cause your so close to it it seems simple.
Not slamming. Just telling the story from a user standpoint and trying to get you to step back a bit into a newbie/novice shoes.
Craig Smith
That was easy!
- Joined
- May 25, 2001
Well I thought I might be walking the line with this one. Perhaps I misworded myself but I think my intent was not clear. I apologize if I rubbed anyone the wrong way.
First off, I do understand that most of you want more information with the system when you buy it. I have acknowledged this many times and I work very hard towards getting this done when time and circumstances allow. Unfortunately, time and circumstance have not been kind for quite some time now. One way or another I will manage to really get after this and finish putting together something more substantial in terms of not only what can be done, but how and why to do it as well.
In the mean time, I try to give the best advice I can to anyone I talk to with questions, and that really was what I tried here but I think it came out wrong. I didn't intend to imply that everyone automatically has all the knowledge and resources right in front of them to just go out and put the Super Duper Tuneup on anything with wheels. My intent was to try and reinforce the notion that when you find yourself in need of assistance, you'll wind up light years ahead by seeking info on the specifics of the problem. Whether that info comes from this board, the manual, a dealer, or a buddy down the street, I honestly believe that the best resolution to the problem is to develop an understanding of what is causing it, and I personally have always perceived the file-hunting method as one which summarily denies you the opportunity to learn about what went wrong and what fixed it.
I understand what Rick is saying about me being too close to the trees; it's a good point and there's probably a lot of truth to it. I'm in a better position than just about anyone to find out everything there is to know about this stuff. But to be honest, I learned the vast majority of what I know simply by trying things myself, both on company equipment and my own personal stuff at the track and on the street.
I said what I said because I truly believe that it is good advice and it will help. More documentation will definitely be a big plus for a lot of people and it WILL happen. However, no matter how much information I ever provide, there will always be too many possible situations to document them all. When that happens, having some hands-on experience to draw from will, in my opinion, be the most valuable tool you have. Seeing the whole forest is important, but if there's only a few trees with a problem, you're better off fixing the trees then clear-cutting and replanting.
Rick, I'm sure you're referring to Chris. He mentioned you the last time I spoke with him. He lives about 10 minutes from our shop and has been there a few times lately. I'm heading to the PRO race in Cordova, IL tomorrow, so if by chance you make it there with Chris I'll see you there. It would be cool to meet you.
As always, I'll be happy to help out here however and whenever I can... but now I gotta get packed and ready to go. Talk to you all next week!
First off, I do understand that most of you want more information with the system when you buy it. I have acknowledged this many times and I work very hard towards getting this done when time and circumstances allow. Unfortunately, time and circumstance have not been kind for quite some time now. One way or another I will manage to really get after this and finish putting together something more substantial in terms of not only what can be done, but how and why to do it as well.
In the mean time, I try to give the best advice I can to anyone I talk to with questions, and that really was what I tried here but I think it came out wrong. I didn't intend to imply that everyone automatically has all the knowledge and resources right in front of them to just go out and put the Super Duper Tuneup on anything with wheels. My intent was to try and reinforce the notion that when you find yourself in need of assistance, you'll wind up light years ahead by seeking info on the specifics of the problem. Whether that info comes from this board, the manual, a dealer, or a buddy down the street, I honestly believe that the best resolution to the problem is to develop an understanding of what is causing it, and I personally have always perceived the file-hunting method as one which summarily denies you the opportunity to learn about what went wrong and what fixed it.
I understand what Rick is saying about me being too close to the trees; it's a good point and there's probably a lot of truth to it. I'm in a better position than just about anyone to find out everything there is to know about this stuff. But to be honest, I learned the vast majority of what I know simply by trying things myself, both on company equipment and my own personal stuff at the track and on the street.
I said what I said because I truly believe that it is good advice and it will help. More documentation will definitely be a big plus for a lot of people and it WILL happen. However, no matter how much information I ever provide, there will always be too many possible situations to document them all. When that happens, having some hands-on experience to draw from will, in my opinion, be the most valuable tool you have. Seeing the whole forest is important, but if there's only a few trees with a problem, you're better off fixing the trees then clear-cutting and replanting.
Rick, I'm sure you're referring to Chris. He mentioned you the last time I spoke with him. He lives about 10 minutes from our shop and has been there a few times lately. I'm heading to the PRO race in Cordova, IL tomorrow, so if by chance you make it there with Chris I'll see you there. It would be cool to meet you.
As always, I'll be happy to help out here however and whenever I can... but now I gotta get packed and ready to go. Talk to you all next week!
Rickerbucks
New Member
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2003
I would just like to chime in and add a comment from a rookie who new very little about EFI tuning and in fact still knows little.
I knew that the demo program would get me started, which is basically did.
My challenge has been the trouble shooting and improvements and fine tuning after I got running.
Case in point, the inquiry I just made in another post. I would like to look at a file similar to mine to be able to contrast the general shape of certain curves. I'm trying to deal with a tip-in lean spike / rich trough. I know that it probably has a lot to do with the AE vs TPS ROC change table, but should I be playing with the AE ve MAP ROC table? What should that MAP table look like as a general shape. I can look at it on the demo tune and have done but again, I'm curious to what degree a different combination causes the curve to move.
The C-Com Help is not too bad and I have looked at Troy's manuel but none-the-less although I can read the words, I do not know what I should be doing with them.
Here is another example of why I would like to look at another tune for perspective. When I am off idle, with the demo tune, I would get a lot of popping through the muffler. I mean a LOT. What I did to make it stop was add a TON of fuel in the bottom 2 lines (in the 75 - 80 area) and the popping went away. However, in closed loop the computer is struggeling to take out fuel when I log the car.
Then in the HOT ROD magazine article is says they got rid of the "backfire" by dropping the VE tables to between 5 - 25. You can see their VE MAP on their website.
Now I'm confused which is right. Today I dropped the bottom two rows to 5 - 25 and I had the popping return. Thus in an ideal world I would like to see another tune for contrast. This differance in results seems to be very big to me.
Another example, The car turns over great but then struggles a little and then rallies and settles into an ideal after 5 - 15 seconds. I have no idea which of the various 4-5 tables to do with 'starting' I'm to attack. I read the manual that explains them but I'm sorry to admit that still doesn't leave me any idea WHICH of the tables is the cure for THIS problem. Now I have tried and playedwith all of them but I'm nervous about doing so to a certain degree. It seems to me I might make a change and I think it is better and then the next day it seems like it is worse, again leaving me confused and unsure of what I have been doing.
At the end of the day, I have spent a fair amount of time playing and things are getting better and better and it is kind of fun, but I have spent a lot of time stabbing in the dark changing things hoping they make a difference without understanding why. I completely accept that every car and tune is different but perhaps through reviewing other tunes I would hopefully be able to at least give myself a feeling of going in the right direction.
I think that if someone were to put some time into a help manual, a "trouble shooting" guide would be a good thing. List the common 'problems' and then list the approaches and step by step order to try and resolve them.
That notwithstanding Craig, great product and I know that all your customers wish FAST great success.
PS: I bought my system as new in box from a guy that never installed it in his car. The FAST distributor was on the other side of the continent and I called him twice to ask for tech support. He did not return my calls. *shrug* I basically was left with the impression I was on my own as a result.
I knew that the demo program would get me started, which is basically did.
My challenge has been the trouble shooting and improvements and fine tuning after I got running.
Case in point, the inquiry I just made in another post. I would like to look at a file similar to mine to be able to contrast the general shape of certain curves. I'm trying to deal with a tip-in lean spike / rich trough. I know that it probably has a lot to do with the AE vs TPS ROC change table, but should I be playing with the AE ve MAP ROC table? What should that MAP table look like as a general shape. I can look at it on the demo tune and have done but again, I'm curious to what degree a different combination causes the curve to move.
The C-Com Help is not too bad and I have looked at Troy's manuel but none-the-less although I can read the words, I do not know what I should be doing with them.
Here is another example of why I would like to look at another tune for perspective. When I am off idle, with the demo tune, I would get a lot of popping through the muffler. I mean a LOT. What I did to make it stop was add a TON of fuel in the bottom 2 lines (in the 75 - 80 area) and the popping went away. However, in closed loop the computer is struggeling to take out fuel when I log the car.
Then in the HOT ROD magazine article is says they got rid of the "backfire" by dropping the VE tables to between 5 - 25. You can see their VE MAP on their website.
Now I'm confused which is right. Today I dropped the bottom two rows to 5 - 25 and I had the popping return. Thus in an ideal world I would like to see another tune for contrast. This differance in results seems to be very big to me.
Another example, The car turns over great but then struggles a little and then rallies and settles into an ideal after 5 - 15 seconds. I have no idea which of the various 4-5 tables to do with 'starting' I'm to attack. I read the manual that explains them but I'm sorry to admit that still doesn't leave me any idea WHICH of the tables is the cure for THIS problem. Now I have tried and playedwith all of them but I'm nervous about doing so to a certain degree. It seems to me I might make a change and I think it is better and then the next day it seems like it is worse, again leaving me confused and unsure of what I have been doing.
At the end of the day, I have spent a fair amount of time playing and things are getting better and better and it is kind of fun, but I have spent a lot of time stabbing in the dark changing things hoping they make a difference without understanding why. I completely accept that every car and tune is different but perhaps through reviewing other tunes I would hopefully be able to at least give myself a feeling of going in the right direction.
I think that if someone were to put some time into a help manual, a "trouble shooting" guide would be a good thing. List the common 'problems' and then list the approaches and step by step order to try and resolve them.
That notwithstanding Craig, great product and I know that all your customers wish FAST great success.
PS: I bought my system as new in box from a guy that never installed it in his car. The FAST distributor was on the other side of the continent and I called him twice to ask for tech support. He did not return my calls. *shrug* I basically was left with the impression I was on my own as a result.
Rickerbucks
New Member
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2003
Do you have a tune now? I have a 383 with a 15# ATI on an LT1
tyrfryer,
I send you an email, but no response.
I'm also in Mass, and if you'd like to try to hook up this saturday I expect to be able to have some time.
Where are you?
Send me an email, bobc@gnttype.org .
-Bob Cunningham
I send you an email, but no response.
I'm also in Mass, and if you'd like to try to hook up this saturday I expect to be able to have some time.
Where are you?
Send me an email, bobc@gnttype.org .
-Bob Cunningham
Any chance these simple instructions are included with a FAST, either as a readme.txt file on disc or a printed page? I asked a friend with a FAST if he knew it was this simple to get started on his own (he bought his from a supplier who also did the initial tuneup and has been gradually trying to learn how to do it himself), and he was shocked and amazed. He said that he might have seen that filename on the disk but that there was so much other stuff there that he had either never looked at it or never realized how generic and useful it was. [Another example of the forest and the trees
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