False knock, or so it seems???

[HEATSEEKER]

the knock is still there when I rap the engine, but not when I bring up revs slowly. This is in neutral or running down the road.

Exact the same for me... :frown:

 

[Pronto]

Octain boost is poop. Get 100 ul or make some homebrew and test it after you run down that stuff.

 

[bbbbaad]

I didn't mean to put poop in my tank. I thought for certain that adding octane boost as a troubleshooting means would be appropriate. I am not intending on using it for racing, I can get the fuel at the track for that. I just can't get racing fuel near by to do my testing. Hopefully the poop won't cause damage

I will be heading to a track on Friday for a test and tune. Hopefully I can put this troubleshooting piece behind me by using real racing fuel, unless someone sticks poop in it there also.

Andy

 

[HEATSEEKER]

Octain boost is poop. Get 100 ul or make some homebrew and test it after you run down that stuff.

What is poop?? :redface:

 

[Gary Wells]

All octane booster contains something called MTBN, or MBNT, or something like that, which is basically a lead substitute, and it will fry your 02 sensor and plug your cat. Keep in mind that when the octane booster can says "This product will add 10 points to your octane level, a point is only a tenth of an octane, so most cans/bottles/comntainers of octane booster will raise your octane only a octane or two at most. 100 octane unleaded worked for me, both as a test, and for fueling. My kr went totally away, indicating to me that it was real kr, and was not doing the motor any good.

 

[HEATSEEKER]

All octane booster contains something called MTBN, or MBNT, or something like that, which is basically a lead substitute, and it will fry your 02 sensor and plug your cat. Keep in mind that when the octane booster can says "This product will add 10 points to your octane level, a point is only a tenth of an octane, so most cans/bottles/comntainers of octane booster will raise your octane only a octane or two at most. 100 octane unleaded worked for me, both as a test, and for fueling. My kr went totally away, indicating to me that it was real kr, and was not doing the motor any good.

Okej, thats why my car runs like sh...t??! I bought new spark plugs and a new O2 sensor today and i hopedep that was the problem and i sems to be right, i hope :biggrin: Thanks!!! // Jakob

EDIT: What is kr?? sorry

 

[bbbbaad]

Well, the saga continues. I have read and been told so many times that the knock sensor can only be torquesd to 12 (some people say 14) ft lb. I borrowed a brand new torque wrench and did exactly that (12 ft lb). With as many people telling me this, I am thinking that I have it made. Well, no, 'fraid not. I still have the exact same symptoms.

Next move? Any more suggestions?

Thanks

Andy

 

[suicide six]

Turbo Regal Knock Problem Check List
1. Start-up knock? Normal and usually caused by the starter engaging the flex plate. Usually sets off 1-3 lights.
2. Possible bad ECM or ESC module. Test with good working units.
3. Exhaust rattle – check the down pipe, tail pipes, and have engine tie down strap
4. Boost creep especially top of 1st gear on 1-2 shift.
5. Lean air/fuel mixture.
6. To low octane gas – bad pump gas – try some race gas
7. Too much timing in chip for fuel used. Try different chip.
8. Try cooler spark plugs – use only AC Delco (R43-TS or R42-TS)
9. Gap plugs to .035
10. Check torque converter bolts to make sure they are tight
11. Loose harmonic balancer. Make sure torqued to 200 ft/lb Is keyway secure?
12. Check internal engine noises like timing chains (roller), lifters/rockers, etc.
13. Damaged knock sensor
14. Check fuel pump pressure and volume
15. Proper torque on knock sensor – 14 ft/lb
16. Check Alternator voltage: 13.8 - 14.5v
17. Check computer power wire - they can break internally.
18. Troubleshoot the computer connector power wires and ground wires.
19. Swap coil pack, wires, plugs w/known good units.
20. Swap MAF with known good unit.
21. Check battery ground connection @ block (clean/inspect).
22. Check/change battery cables (both).
23. Are there MAF leaks in the inlet tube?
24. Are there vacuum leaks. Use carb cleaner or WD-40 & spray everything. Does the rpm change?
25. Disconnect the main injector harness - inspect, WD-40. Check for moisture in main connector.
26. Disconnect the coil-pack connector - inspect pins & spray w/WD-40.
27. Is the cat still installed? Is it good?
28. Have you performed a leak down check?
29. Do the rockers open/close? Do we have a wiped cam lobe?
30. Is the boost/vacuum steady @ idle?
31. Is the engine over revving? Should be 4,800-5,200 rpm
32. Carbon in cylinders? Clean with GM engine top cleaner
33. Inter-cooler dirty? Clean inside inter-cooler and fins
34. Oil in intake tract?
35. Check for exhaust leaks, cracked header
36. Battery good?
37. EGR valve in working order?
38. Check that no cables, wires, etc are touching the knock sensor
39. Blown head gasket? Compression test. Should be around 150.
40. Injectors flowing/working correctly?
41. Check vacuum line to fuel pressure regulator for cracks
__________________

 

[bbbbaad]

I appreciate the repeat of this listing of trouble spots. I have read just about every previous post related to knock and have this list burnt into my memory. When I go out to work on trying to find this problem, I have this list with me.

To say I am very frustrated is putting it mildly. I think I may take the night off and re-think where I have been and where to go next (maybe the Bahamas?). Just like the Pirate that walked into the bar with a steering wheel attached to his fly....the bartender said "hey, you have a steering wheel stuck to your fly".....the Pirate replies "Arrrrrrrrr, it's drivin me nuts!"

Arrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[suicide six]

Any metal to metal on motor mounts?Broken or sloppy mount?How much time is on cam sensor?Was it recently adjusted?

 

[bbbbaad]

Engine was totally rebuilt 1500 miles ago. All new parts, including the motor mounts and cam sensor, crankshaft sensor, etc... were installed when the build was done. I can't say if it was adjusted properly, so checking it could be in order. I am checking everything I can think of.

 

[Pronto]

kr=knock retard

 

[jjvites]

Andy,
I believe your next step has to be to determine once and for all is it real or false knock, then you can look further into which way to go. Get some high octane fuel and check it. By the way have you determined what your fuel pressure is under load with a good gauge. O2 readings?

Marty

 

[jjvites]

Andy,
Looking back at your earlier posts I see that you replaced your MAF. From what I have been reading about the replacement MAF's is that they have issues. They are not like the originals. That's why I replaced mine with a new LS1 MAF and a Translator +, works beatufily.

Marty

 

[bbbbaad]

Thanks again for the replies.

I am headed to the race track on Friday, mostly to load up with race fuel and definitely settle whether it is false or not. I agree that this is my next major step.

I replaced the MAF with a Delco part, so would be surprised if it were the problem. I am interested in the LS1 MAF and translator, but I still believe I should be able to get what I have running without the knock. I want to get the basics solid first and then improve on them with better upgrade parts, but smartly. I could see dumping loads of money into this by adding on parts that are not necessary. I had the lower part of the engine built strong so it would hold up to added parts later, when I get the nerve to add that kinda bucks.

I still want to get the basics worked out and this knock is killing me. One writeup I was looking at tonight says to run 100 octane fuel and disable the knock sensor so you get no Kr at all. Risky move but makes sense when you read it. Kinda like someone stepping on your tail as you are trying to run away.

On we go......

 

[jjvites]

What would be the point of putting in 100 octane and removing the knock sensor? The idea is to prove out either way if it's real or not. Only with the sensor will you know for sure that the knock went away. Anyway you can't just unhook the wire on the sensor, you have to remove the ground from the ESC module so it wont see it in the ecm and set a code-restrict timing.
As far as the MAF's go they are all suspect, Delco part number or not they are all REBUILT and not likely from an original GN core. Do a search here on MAF's and you will see. LS1 MAF's aren't so much an upgrade as that is what is available NEW and good. Check Mike Licht's site at Full Throttle Speed and Style he carries them for around $70.00, but it's the Translator that is a little pricey. With the Translor + you can adjust the timing up or down to suit your fuel without re-burning your chip, plus you can add or subtract fuel as needed. I use this with the crappy fuel that we have here in California.

Marty

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Sounds like you might have some lifters not pumping up, is the lifter tick pretty loud??

Check your valve train clearances, you could have a bent pushrod etc.

Stop screwing around with the knock sensor, its not that. You are going to drive yourself nuts.

Octane boost is a scam, you gain 1 actual point and its the cost of a gallon of 110 unleaded.

 

[bbbbaad]

OK, I did it. I took the car to the track tonight. I only got one race in because of rain but I did get a tank of 104 ul put in. Guess what???? It still knocks. I declare this false knock. It occurs at a rapid high rev in neutral or driving and kicking it down into a lower gear and causing what I would consider the same scenario, a rapid high rev. I am getting 30-40 kr which is rediculous.

I am suspecting a bad ECM but I don't know if that is possible for it to report from the sensor a knock from that wasn't there. But hey, that's why I am the stupid one here and you guys are the experts. What the heck is going on with this? I know I could get a listing of every component on the car, every system that they create, and say that I need to check every one of them to find it. But what the heck, maybe I can get a sensible list and work on that?

Just a thought.....

 

[bbbbaad]

Well, I guess I fell off the screen, people stopped responding, so I was left to my own to figure this out....and I got it!!

I finally decided to try messing with the new knock sensor. I had replaced it with a new sensor, no difference. I found out about torque requirements (12-14 ft lb, just over hand tight, etc). I borrowed a brand new torque wrench and tightened it to 12 ft lb. No difference. So, today, I decided to back it out to where it was still loose on the threads. Big difference! No knock.

Heck, why not get me some red loctite and put the thing in finger tight, everything should be good, huh? Not so quickly. It acted like it was torqued down tight again. I quickly pulled it back out, before the red stuff had its way. I was nearly too late, it was already on tighter than a wrench could easily remove it. I cleaned off the threads and lubed it up a bit so the red stuff didn't have it's way no more. Left it finger tight, or maybe a little less than that. Put the coil tower back on for the umpteenth million time.

Now it was playing time. I can reach the sensor with the coil tower on, just can't get a wrench on it, but now I can adjust it with my fingers. By going 1/4 turn tight or loose I can get the knock to come in or not, under rapid acceleration in neutral. Woo, hoo. I got it. No more false knock!!!!

I still have 1/2 tank of 104 ul in the car so I now get to go out and terrorize the highway. OMG. Is this what the car is supposed to run like when everything is working properly? What a great feeling at the seat of the pants.

Well, now I am down for about 6 weeks, wanting to get to the track to try it out. Unfortunately I have a hernia operation scheduled for tomorrow morning and need the 6 weeks to recover properly. I guess I can shine it up so people can see a nice car at the track instead of a dirty one, and hopefully faster and more impressive.

Thanks to all that chipped in to help me on this. I have to say that this has been one of my more frustrating evolutions. But now that I found it, I am extremely pleased. I hope this thread can assist others in the future, much like others that I have read to get me this far.

Andy

 

[Squid4life]

I hope that it was false knock. I have a similar problem with knock that I have been fighting. It has been suggested to me to loosen the knock sensor, but I am afraid of making it not sensitive enough. It is kind of like aving bad oil pressure and throwing 50wt race oil in it and your pressure is better. I am not knocking (no pun intended) your way of fixing it, moreso thinking out loud if I should do the same. Part of me says this is the way GM intended it so torque it to 14 and look elsewhere. Then another part of me says it can't be real knock so do like you did and loosen the sensor. I would be curious what torque your "finger torque wrench" has it set to when it first quiets down. Are we talking 10 ftlbs, or 2 ftlbs?

Like I said, not saying you are wrong, just thinking out loud. I am glad you got it figured out.