Engine oil compatibility with alky injection

[Alky V6]

I thought it would be interesting to find out if anyone has found any brand of oil that is not compatible with small street alky injection kits. I've heard and read in the past that you should be careful of some oils that can quickly get attacked by the alcohol in the blowby. The oil manufacturers don't supply a lot of info as far as what alcohol might do to their particular engine oil or suggested change intervals if alcohol fuel is present.

I do know that with a pure alcohol burning engine, a thicker oil is generally used, compared to what might be used if only gasoline fuel was used. The idea is have the reserve protection of the thicker oil available as the alcohol slowly thins and degrades the oil before the next oil change. Which is usually very soon.

I'm wondering:
What oil selection strategies you all are using, taking the alcohol into account?
How often are you changing the oil?
How quickly are you finding the oil become cloudy with how much alky being injected? Single nozzle versus dual nozzle, etc.
Have you found an oil that you must stay away from because of alky incompatibilty?
What weights have you tried and are presently running?
What conditions did you find that forced you to change oil brand, type, weight?
Have some of you found no reason to take special precautions with the engine oil? What brand, type, weight are you using?

 

[Razor]

Don,
One thing you also need to look at is racing the engine period breaks down oil.

3000 miles = 12000 1/4 mile passes :redface:

The more you beat on an engine, the oil breakdown will happen sooner.. alky or not.

Now if the motor is run on the richer side, then more breakdown will also occur.

I have gone 2000 miles before an oil change. and gone just a few hundred.. I just keep an eye on the color of the oil and take in account how much beatings the motor has seen.

 

[Alky V6]

So I take it that if someone takes their street car to the track for the weekend with a dual nozzle setup and a fresh oil change, he's not experiencing the typical clouding of the oil from the alcohol? Are people even keeping a check on their oil condition?

Oil breakdown due to heat and load levels are a lot different than introducing a chemical (alcohol) that is incompatible with chemicals in the oil additive package. I'm talking about a chemical breakdown of the oil. Like pouring solvent into paint. The kind of thing I would not ignore for 2,000 miles.

 

[Dust]

The only way to really know what is going on in your oil is to get it tested. COlor isn't necessarily a good way to check the oil. SOme oils have heat activated additives that kick it when it gets good and hot, and turn the oil darker. The only way to tell if you oil is bad is by rubbing in between your fingers and checking on particles, or you can use the blotter test. But, being that this is a racing oriented site, and not a tribology one, I would stick with the Used Oil Analysis with a translation

 

[Grumpy]

So I take it that if someone takes their street car to the track for the weekend with a dual nozzle setup and a fresh oil change, he's not experiencing the typical clouding of the oil from the alcohol? Are people even keeping a check on their oil condition?

Oil breakdown due to heat and load levels are a lot different than introducing a chemical (alcohol) that is incompatible with chemicals in the oil additive package. I'm talking about a chemical breakdown of the oil. Like pouring solvent into paint. The kind of thing I would not ignore for 2,000 miles.

we race every now and then with Melissa's GN with Alky.. "Then" is coming up as it gets cooler here we have run 5/50 Castrol synthetic oil with no problems.. This is a summer driver although this year the car has only seen 2/3000 miles .. last year she piled on a lot.. we are allways "looking" at the oil .. no "milkshake" looking oh.. the car does get a fair share of "beatings"

 

[Razor]

So I take it that if someone takes their street car to the track for the weekend with a dual nozzle setup and a fresh oil change, he's not experiencing the typical clouding of the oil from the alcohol? Are people even keeping a check on their oil condition?

Oil breakdown due to heat and load levels are a lot different than introducing a chemical (alcohol) that is incompatible with chemicals in the oil additive package. I'm talking about a chemical breakdown of the oil. Like pouring solvent into paint. The kind of thing I would not ignore for 2,000 miles.

No clouding like what you would see on an engine run on straight methanol.

Think of it like this, the alcohol is maybe 20% of your fueling, and only spraying under heavy load. Unlike a meth car that alcohol is always running and is 100 percent of the fueling.

 

[Grumpy]

Think of it like this, the alcohol is maybe 20% of your fueling, and only spraying under heavy load. Unlike a meth car that alcohol is always running and is 100 percent of the fueling.

took the words right out of my mouth your not at full throttle for long driving it on the street

 

[Alky V6]

The only way to really know what is going on in your oil is to get it tested. COlor isn't necessarily a good way to check the oil. SOme oils have heat activated additives that kick it when it gets good and hot, and turn the oil darker. The only way to tell if you oil is bad is by rubbing in between your fingers and checking on particles, or you can use the blotter test. But, being that this is a racing oriented site, and not a tribology one, I would stick with the Used Oil Analysis with a translation

Now that would be interesting. Good post from Japan. A Used Oil Analysis would be the perfect way to go with this question. My oil gets changed out after every one or two events. Depends on how many runs I can get in on each. The oil can be anywhere from a slight cloudiness to milkshake looking. That's just 5 to maybe 15 passes. If you guys are burning 20% for a short period, I would think that enough is getting into the oil to affect the chemical makeup of the oil. As I mentioned earlier some oils are specifically designed to combat the affects of alcohol contamination. The vast majority are just plain not!

So it appears so far from the responces that no one has really done any good research into how the alky, in small usage, may be affecting the type of oil they're using.

This is something that people should be taking a very hard look at.

I would suggest that alky injection manufacturers should be taking the bull by the horn on this one and start doing some careful studies on this subject.

 

[JOHNDEEREGN]

DonWG,,, I do not know you at all, and I apologize in advance if this post is in-correct.

But it sounds to me like you have a hidden agenda you "might" be pushing here.

As I said if I am wrong, I apologize in advance, but I see where 100's if not 1000's of people that use TR as Daily Drivers use ALKY and have no issues what so ever.

Ty

 

[Alky V6]

The only agenda here is to inform people. Would you rather I kept my mouth shut and let people drive around with potentially harmed oil in their oil pans? I have a unique experience with my engine setup that has forced me to do a lot of research and learning, mostly from hard knocks. I'm just trying to pass info on so that maybe someone will save having to rebuild their engine. I guess I could say that's an agenda, but I don't see how it could be a harmful agenda to anyone.

Are you maybe referring to how when commercials talk about cigarettes causing cancer, how it might affect cigarette sales? Maybe in your mind, people shouldn't be warned of the potential harm from smoking cigarettes?

I'm not saying here that small alky injection kits ruin your oil. I'm asking the question, does small alky injection kits affect oils with differing oil additive packages? If it does, and you use a small alky injection kit, wouldn't you want to know what oils to stay away from to avoid potential engine damage? I can't imagine why anyone would not. Can you?

It sounds to me like you may be perceiving that I have a 'certain' agenda. Being the curious cat that I am, and one that likes things to be out in the open here, what do you think that agenda might be? Let's discuss it.

Maybe this topic just makes you uncomfortable to have to think about what may or may not be happening with your oil? I can understand that. Most would rather stick their heads in the sand, than try to find out the answer. I'm getting the sense that maybe there's a lot of those here. With a few exceptions, of course.

 

[Alky V6]

Look. I'm just as curious about this as some of you others. I want to know what other oils I have the option of using. And, I want to know the safest options.

My present understanding about engine oils and alcohol is this. If the bottle says, compatible with alcohol fuels, it's OK to use with careful monitoring. If the bottle says nothing about compatibility with alcohol fuels, then the unwritten phrase on the bottle is, DO NOT use with alcohol fuels.

 

[Grumpy]

Donnie..... Melissa beat the hell out of "my" motor for 8000 miles anyway dumping lots of alky in it . this is a high9/low10 street car she drives during the summer .. We did take the motor apart because we were curious after last year .. Nothing .. we did put new bearings in it while it was apart SOOOO you want to tell us why your asking ???

 

[Grumpy]

oh..walking around at a "Nopi" import event there was a fast 4 cyl there that SCREAMED that ran on Methanol.. they changed the oil after EVERY run !! It looked like a milkshake

 

[Alky V6]

Donnie..... Melissa beat the hell out of "my" motor for 8000 miles anyway dumping lots of alky in it . this is a high9/low10 street car she drives during the summer .. We did take the motor apart because we were curious after last year .. Nothing .. we did put new bearings in it while it was apart SOOOO you want to tell us why your asking ???

Why I'm asking?... The answer is not as far fetched as you can imagine. Simply, I'm curious.

The two very opposite experiences that you just posted are the EXACT reason I'm asking.

Here are two very different extremes. Running 100% alky and having to change the oil after every run. Then the other extreme. Using alky in very small percentages and absolutely no affect on the oil? At least, that is what I'm gathering from your post. The next question is, is there truly no adverse affect to the oil beyond a simple visual inspection? What is the chemical analysis of the oil that's been used in a small alky application over a long period of time? Has anyone else had a bad situation with oil contamination? What kind of oil was it?

Or, should we just be satisfied with the simple observations of a few and drop the subject? Is there something out there that we're not supposed to discover? Now you have me thinking there might be an agenda going on here. You know when people start getting the feeling there's a cover up going on, it just makes some others dig deeper.

Now I know how Columbus felt when he was asking to find out if the world was round. Oh, it's flat. Don't worry about it.

 

[Grumpy]

Donnie we do "look" at our oil prob 3 times a week when we are filling the Alky tank .. Car is allways getting the "check over" by one of us !! .. BUT we are just goin by what we see with our eyes .. ummmm..I think your animal is different then ours :biggrin: .. yours is a complete drunk and ours is a "social" drinker

 

[Jay Wicks]

Dual nozzle alky kit here, car has been my daily driver [by choice],for over 3 years, lots of beating on, I live in the country. I have not seen any visual or touch degradation of the oil, haven't had the motor apart but all seems fine. Still, I'm sure the oil is breaking down some, there must be some contamination from the alky with blowbye under boost, maybe just not enough to create a big problem.
Having been on both sides of this, I know very well the cloudiness that you describe having been around both a meth injected BBC with stacks and an alcohol dragster. Even with nasty oil, neither one seem to have serious bearing problems. The TAD had more issues if it was short shifted and loaded the bearings. The BBC seemed to clean up the oil after going to a C&A zero gap ring. Way back then, I don't remember any oil being advertised alcohol friendly.
Don, I have to wonder if the percentage of oil contamination is drastically increased on cold start and idle conditions as well as full run time. Perhaps the 20% usage on a warmed up motor under 10 sec of boost isn't causing most alky users a noticeable problem. I think your Pennzoil is a good oil.

 

[Razor]

Don,
I and those close to me have gone through a lot of motors due to racing. I have never seen any issues with bearings, never seen any milkshake/cloudiness of oil, never seen any issue oil related.

Your are assumming 20%.. it may be that only 8% or 4% is needed to stop the knock detector from going off.

So after tearing down about a dozen engines.. after being involved with these cars since 02.. sold 1000's of kits for these cars.. never not once has anyone had "an oil issue"

can it, could it,,, anything is possible.

With these cars.. and the subject OIL.. hehehe.. how bout adding ZDDP, EOS, Synthetic, etc..

So if there is no issue.. what are you looking for?

 

[Alky V6]

Dual nozzle alky kit here, car has been my daily driver [by choice],for over 3 years, lots of beating on, I live in the country. I have not seen any visual or touch degradation of the oil, haven't had the motor apart but all seems fine. Still, I'm sure the oil is breaking down some, there must be some contamination from the alky with blowbye under boost, maybe just not enough to create a big problem.
Having been on both sides of this, I know very well the cloudiness that you describe having been around both a meth injected BBC with stacks and an alcohol dragster. Even with nasty oil, neither one seem to have serious bearing problems. The TAD had more issues if it was short shifted and loaded the bearings. The BBC seemed to clean up the oil after going to a C&A zero gap ring. Way back then, I don't remember any oil being advertised alcohol friendly.
Don, I have to wonder if the percentage of oil contamination is drastically increased on cold start and idle conditions as well as full run time. Perhaps the 20% usage on a warmed up motor under 10 sec of boost isn't causing most alky users a noticeable problem. I think your Pennzoil is a good oil.

There we go. Someone putting their thinking cap on. I suppose it helps more to analyze this question when you've had experience burning pure alcohol. Good observation about the cold startup and idle conditions versus a fully warmed up engine with oil brought up to operating temp before a smaller amount of alky is injected for a short period of time.

I sure would like to get an oil engineers take on having small quantities of alcohol introduced to an engine oil that is not specifically designed for alcohol use.

Actually, I'm noticing more and more oils being advertised as safe with alcohol. It makes me wonder what the differences in additive packages must be between the two types and the functions of the additive packages in the alcohol friendly oil.

 

[Razor]

What about E85?

 

[Alky V6]

Don,
I and those close to me have gone through a lot of motors due to racing. I have never seen any issues with bearings, never seen any milkshake/cloudiness of oil, never seen any issue oil related.

Your are assumming 20%.. it may be that only 8% or 4% is needed to stop the knock detector from going off.

So after tearing down about a dozen engines.. after being involved with these cars since 02.. sold 1000's of kits for these cars.. never not once has anyone had "an oil issue"

can it, could it,,, anything is possible.

With these cars.. and the subject OIL.. hehehe.. how bout adding ZDDP, EOS, Synthetic, etc..

So if there is no issue.. what are you looking for?

I find it interesting that some of you find it hard to grasp why I started this thread. I am looking for a general consensus and/or some educated knowledge on the subject from more than just a couple people as to whether or not there is a potential problem with the common engine oils people commonly use and alcohol contamination. I thought I outlined the question well enough in my first post. I guess not. Sorry about that. Thanks for the experiences some of you outlined. They do help quench my curiosity.

"So if there is no issue.. what are you looking for?" The answer is, I'm trying to find out if there is an issue or not. That's why people ask questions, right?