E-85 and Meth. Injection

[89drivin87]

My experience an Opinions

I was running 24psi with straight 93 and a maxed out smc kit with dual m10 nozzles.I was running roughly 740 to 750 on o2s.I converted to straight e85 at 24psi and maxed out 60lb injectors i was at 710 to 720 on o2s.With the alky kit on stand by i slowly started to add in alky.nothing... nothing... nothing.Untill the system was maxed out.Then the numbers raised to 740. These were all third gear pulls from 65 to 100 on a cool miami night.70 degrees for those who dont know.This is just my experience.Since then i have installed a razor kit with same m10 nozzles and now have tranny slipage due to the power.

I called snow performance one day just to pick their brain on what they though about i was doing. They said the octane rating with e85 and meth is over 120.He didnt know much about buicks so his advice on tuning was useless.But the octane rating stuck.The octane rating and the cheap price has me determined to make it work.

Im planing on running the same 28 psi as you are once my tranny issues are fixed.Wish me luck on that.

 

[incharge]

Wow 120 octane if this is true I need to keep spraying .Can anyone else confirm this??

 

[ITSNOTAGN]

I did this years ago, I was running 32psi on a stock longblock with pump 93 and all the meth i could throw at it, 3 M10 nozzless with about all Razors kit could muster, one was pre-turbo (that alone upped my boost almost 3# with no other changes). Only mods were valvesprings, TE-44 with .82 housing (wg strapped shut), 3" DP, no intercooler, injectors and TT alky chip running 26/25* timing. The car was wild and would pull on 120-130 cars on the street. I could run 18psi on gas alone.

I then switched to E85 and was out of fuel at 16psi, so i stepped it up to 6 M5 nozzles as a semi-direct port setup and one M5 pre turbo, but ran out of meth at about 29#s.

What i found was with E85 on boost you can run it as lean as 12.7 or so before there are problems (but there is no safety net, when it knocks finally it WILL take out the motor), and when adding meth you could be adding a whole point of AFR or more, and it takes an extreme amount to get there. The reasons for the low O2 mV is that the combustion temp, and EGTs are lower by a large margin. I had a problem of puddling in the ports toward the end since the charge at the valve was so cold it would no longer vaporize. This led to very erratic problems and eventually took out 3 pistons (after 2 years of hard abuse). Fact is you NEED the fuel system for the power you are going to make with E85, and the meth is only good in smaller amounts after that point IMHO. Injecting the sheer volume of E85 makes your % of methanol so slim that any change takes alot. But, if you can get it figured out its very worth it.

Right now i am building a FB RX7 with a nissan VG30 (2350lbs) and am doing a direct port methanol system on it again, with no IC and running stock tune and injectors. I will be running E30 which is 99 octane equivalent with only a 6-8% added fuel volume needed ( I have availible at the pump E20,30,50, and E85) with higher base pressure as well.

 

[89drivin87]

I did this years ago, I was running 32psi on a stock longblock with pump 93 and all the meth i could throw at it, 3 M10 nozzless with about all Razors kit could muster, one was pre-turbo (that alone upped my boost almost 3# with no other changes). Only mods were valvesprings, TE-44 with .82 housing (wg strapped shut), 3" DP, no intercooler, injectors and TT alky chip running 26/25* timing. The car was wild and would pull on 120-130 cars on the street. I could run 18psi on gas alone.

I then switched to E85 and was out of fuel at 16psi, so i stepped it up to 6 M5 nozzles as a semi-direct port setup and one M5 pre turbo, but ran out of meth at about 29#s.

What i found was with E85 on boost you can run it as lean as 12.7 or so before there are problems (but there is no safety net, when it knocks finally it WILL take out the motor), and when adding meth you could be adding a whole point of AFR or more, and it takes an extreme amount to get there. The reasons for the low O2 mV is that the combustion temp, and EGTs are lower by a large margin. I had a problem of puddling in the ports toward the end since the charge at the valve was so cold it would no longer vaporize. This led to very erratic problems and eventually took out 3 pistons (after 2 years of hard abuse). Fact is you NEED the fuel system for the power you are going to make with E85, and the meth is only good in smaller amounts after that point IMHO. Injecting the sheer volume of E85 makes your % of methanol so slim that any change takes alot. But, if you can get it figured out its very worth it.

Right now i am building a FB RX7 with a nissan VG30 (2350lbs) and am doing a direct port methanol system on it again, with no IC and running stock tune and injectors. I will be running E30 which is 99 octane equivalent with only a 6-8% added fuel volume needed ( I have availible at the pump E20,30,50, and E85) with higher base pressure as well.

lots of good info.good luck with that build.

 

[supramantrm]

this is what i was hoping to hear .Lots of good info from real world experiences .
It just seems if your gonna run e-85 it needs to be tuned no matter what the mix 20-30 whatever % of mix with 93.
The benefits of how the car runs is amazing and worth the tune ,you just need to do it and i was recieving bad info about tuning .
Glad this is coming out.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Incharge, your motor is 16% larger than ours already, then we don't know what turbo you're running or how much CFM your heads flow but...

You're way past anyone posting in this thread on fuel requirements for E85. 120's with your combo and say a Billet67 would probably do what you're describing at 23psi so you need to step up the injectors and rethink that dual Walbro for volume.

I'd be curious as to what your MAT temps are at WOT in 3rd and then see if the E85 and Meth are putting temps too low for the cylinders to combust efficiently.

 

[incharge]

Good point I plan on increasing the meth to a much bigger nozzle and do some testing this weekend and I will post the MAT at WOT . I am running a 74 GTQ turbo and the heads are Heavily ported with big valves . (no idea on flow # )

 

[Hot Air]

FWIW,
I would step up to an Aeromotive Eliminator inline fuel pump (or equal) with controller and a Aeromotive Pro FPR and FAST EFI. Run at least 120 injedtors. Go lean 1 time at those boost levels and you will get a new motor.
Conrad

 

[Razor]

Grumpy's car ran 9.9 at 138 on 60 lb injectors and a twin nozzle alky kit. Single walbro 255.

With 120's it should support that unless your fuel system is not keeping up.

You should be monitoring both fuel and alcohol pressure through your logger. That way you know when things are not keeping up.

Padding a weak fuel system with methanol=blown motor. It works as a bandaid for a while, but not for long as the tuneup gets real touchy. Padding and supplementing are two different things. With E85 you already have additional octane, so the only reason for the meth kit is to keep IAT's down coming into the motor.

 

[incharge]

Isn't there the added fuel factor as well as increased octane when spraying meth?? My fuel system is very good 2 brand new 340,s in the tank with both pumps coming on at 5# of boost , -10 fuel line from the tank to Champion fuel rails . a volt booster to keep the voltage up at all times and a bigger return line . Razors alky kit with a single nozzle ...

 

[Razor]

You should be monitoring both fuel and alcohol pressure through your logger. That way you know when things are not keeping up.

I'll tell you what you should be doing. Getting you to do it is another thing. You cannot speculate on these fueling issues. If you do.. you'll be building a new motor sooner than latter.

Yes your power logger can record both of these parameters. Datalog everything so your not guessing what is and what isnt.

 

[GNVYUS 1]

I agree with Razor in that you need to log this combo very closely, very closely.

But Razor, Grumpys setup and Incharges are WAY different. The fact that he has 16% more cubes with E85 means he needs 46% more in fueling than Grumpy on gas just to start. (30% E85 + 16% bigger motor) So the 60's now turn into 90's and then add in the big difference in power to fuel at 10.8 AF/R etc.

Grumpy ran a 67/76 and that 74GTQ has made over 800rwhp on Turbo Mustangs around the 32psi mark.

The 120's are too small and the dual Walbros are not going to fuel this combo at race track levels.

Incharge,
You need 46% more fuel than the rest of us just to start. Now add up your turbo flow, head flow and other factors like cam etc and you're in need of a MASSIVE fuel system and I haven't seen 2 Walbro's make 800rwhp on gas, let alone E85 which will rob 30% off those power #'s. Even if someone made 1000rwhp on dual Walbros, it would only be good for 700rwhp on E85.

Check out these fuel test charts, the dual intank Walbros are not that impressive. Going one intank Walbro and 1 external flows better, let alone if you do 1 intank Walbro and 1 044 would push even more.
AMS Ultimate Fuel Pump Test - NASIOC

You need to have a 3rd Walbro come online to fuel this combo at the track. FWIW, Supras have a 3 Walbro fuel pump hanger setup. There are cars running that many pumps to support big power and that was intended for gas setups and 1000+rwhp Supras.

 

[supramantrm]

this is what i was getting at in my post.
GNVYUS1 ,Julio came in here and stated Grumpy ran a nine with the same 60 injectors i run with 1 pump as i do except that he has a dual nozzle system as opposed to the single nozzle i run.Sounds like we have similar set ups ,obviously we don`t.But ,to the untrained or in my case new to buicks sounded like i should be able to run a 30% mix of e-85 only making 19 lbs of boost?Well now i know that ain`t workin.But i listened to well respected people on here and other forums that lead me to make a bad decision.Just remember not all the people who follow tese boards are as smart as you guys .
As my screen name implies i own a single turbo supra also.We in the sup world don`t have much good to say about walbro`s.If your gonna run a dual or triple pump setup its usually a denso which is stock.But several friends run 3 denso` with e-85 100% and make 800 and close to 900 so they`ll handdle it .I think they are usually expected to support 500rwhp each.the problem is getting injectors to follow suit.Most run 1200`s at least and now the new ID 1,000`s and 2000`s seem to be the ticket.I run 880 siemans with 2 denso`s but only look to run a measley 20 lbs of boost and 500-550 with 50-50 e-85 and 93.
I think i`ll leave the e-85 for that car and run pump in the buick ,FOR NOW,after my new head gaskets go on.But i`ll follow you guys who are the innovaters closely to see who` motors stay together ,lol.

 

[Grumpy]

ok still no one answered my question I thought guys are running great running straight E85 ?? why add alky to it ?? IF your goin to run alky just run pump gas ?? Am I missing something ???
... oh his set up is WAY more than our simple small set up

 

[jasjamz]

IF your goin to run alky just run pump gas ??

FWIW I have tried to get into E-85 with a 50/50 mix. It allowed me to run 22 psi at 21* in 3rd gear with no Alky. Problem was I had to add 20% more fuel to keep th numbers in the high 700- low 800s.
I have tried 110 fuel same boost, more timing like 23-24* I have also run 93 and Meth. 22 psi 21*.
The 93 and Meth gave me the most MPH and is easier to work with on a daily driver.
I did like the 50/50 mix but to go full E-85 it would require me to buy larger injectors, chip and could kill the intank pump. My point is that using E-85 is a risk since its kinda new to this community. Alky was the same was when it started out until we had more experience with it and learned the do's and don'ts.
I would not be risking an engine on E85 and alky unless i knew alot about both and had a wideband, egt, knock reader and logging device to keep an eye on things.

 

[Grumpy]

My point is that using E-85 is a risk since its kinda new to this community. Alky was the same was when it started out until we had more experience with it and learned the do's and don'ts.

well it's not available around us .. BUT I have been watching threads about it.. Some guy ran low 10s with it a while ago. Seems a lot are trying it BUT I haven't read about results with it.. Oh Julio bugged me for a LONG time to try alky!! Tuff trying to teach an old dog new tricks

 

[ITSNOTAGN]

IMHO there is NO SECRET to running E85. All it takes is a fuel system and a little tuning. I have run it quite a bit, and i have alot of freinds that do. None of us ever test it, just take it right out of the pump, and none of us have ever had to adjust the tune any more than normal. Just watch the wideband and tune it just like gas, only diff is you can start out with 3-4* more timing right off the bat.

One of my buds has a TT 427W in a 95 mustang and it has been making over 1200whp for a couple years. In fact it is making almost 1400whp and will be making even more than that this year, closer to 1600whp and that is through a stalled TH400. Never test the fuel, just put it in and go. Working out the bugs last year and getting it setup it ran 8.18@173 with a couple hundred horses to go.

 

[Grumpy]

I was talking Buick STREET cars little difference between 2 427 TT Mustang and a Buick

 

[GNVYUS 1]

Supramantrm, I wasn't addressing your situation in my last post but personally, if you're going to start mixing E85, you're asking for more trouble tuning wise than the rest of us on 100% E85. I'd only mix IF I had an in cockpit Wideband so I can see what's happening every second. Considering E85's blends change at different times from state to state, you're playing with fire if your tune is on the edge cylinder pressure wise.
E85 chips and widebands should be a package deal IMO.
Once the tune starts going fat, you know less Ethanol is in the mix and the boost/timing might need to change along with the AF/R. This applies to all of us but even more so the mixing crowd as your Ethanol effect window is much smaller than ours.

Your 3 Denso's on an E85 Supra over 800rwhp comment is exactly where I was going in my last post to Incharge, time for another Walbro (Denso) externally to help out.

Grumpy, Fat Ride has a nice combo kicking butt with something like 29psi with 22 degrees timing. I don't know if he's pushed the cylinder pressure more to find the threshold (I wouldn't) but that's damn good for 20 cents cheaper than 87 octane.

I think you're wondering why is Incharge then running Meth on top of E85 and it seemed like he was trying to get the richness from it to help out his pump/injector shortfall. After he works the pump issue out I'd be curious to see if IDC comes down with the Meth on. I have a feeling it's very little in comparison to Gas setups and even less since he's only on a single nozzle.

 

[ITSNOTAGN]

i dont think so, he drives it around on the street all the time, He drives it around fargo whenever hes at the shop and the pickup is hooked up to the trailer, probably 100 miles a week