Cryo & Cyberspace
I have an intense interest in cryoing, I am considering entering the
http://enginemasters.com/rules.shtml and have deal-killer strength problems cryoing might help. I talked to Bruce about this long ago, he responsed approximately the same as he did in this string. He is the only individual I have every found with actual empirical test data in over two years of asking. Everyone else just has antidotal information and positions.
I'm in partial agreement with you OK Turbo, there is something there but cryoing verges on vodoo because very little replicative science has been developed. The most relevant--automotive high performance--non-academic source I've found is
http://www.metal-wear.com/ The guy in NC does work for the NSCAR teams and there is a paper on the website that pretty much captures what is undisputably known. Academic sources are always suspect until demonstrated in the real world, I to have a BSME but Bruce is a more accomplished engineer than I'll ever be.
Bruce's approach to the forward drum failure appears to be the only legitimate approach I've encountered. However, I try to keep an open mind. I can add to his explanation of why cryoing shows no benefit on the forward drum--cryoing cannot "repair" stress fractures due to cycling--in other words, cryoing only has the potential to improve the STRENGTH of a forward drum that has NEVER been used. Since GM no longer provides new forward drums the only certain way to strenghten them would be to replace the weaked/weak portion with new and better materials. Bruce could probably cryo one of his "remanufactured" forward drums and raise the torque handling capability from 800 foot pounds to over 1000, before it is installed and used.
In theory, I agree with CKP's position that the gears may benefit from cryoing but nothing in the CKP email in this post proves anything, it is just a general statement. My email asked for test data associated with the planets. I suspect that the planets fail at the weld joints which would require a different design and the manufacture of a new part, improvements in the gears alone from cryoing would not avert component failure.
BTW -- I use ceramic coatings on virtually every wear surface in my 200 4Rs, including the planet gears and shafts that are removable. I even coated wear surfaces on Bruce's $400 billet forward drum! I also coat the case with a heat-shedding ceramic and have been using coatings for nearly a decade in my engine rebuilding program.
http://techlinecoatings.com/ I've sent Bruce a sample--a coated front plastic spacer, he's skeptical.
Ceramic coatings and cryoing SOME parts may provide benefits, but with Bruce's business the issue is economics--guys will spend $10,000+ dollars on an engine and then start kicking about spending $2500 on a decent trannie to get the power to the ground. IMO, a holisitic approach to the entire drivetrain is required with the engine and balance of the drive train requiring an equal amount of money. I actually spend an equal amount on the engine and trannie.
The only useful thing my request to CKP for more informaiton seemed to generate was insight into his personality. I'll pass on the shop tour, I don't want to get fitted for a pair of concrete shoes.
CKP, this is the reply in my hotmail account files; I guess yours was lost in cyberspace, wherever that is. Never received/saw the one in this post. Please forward it to me as I keep copious records for technical subjects of interest, such as cryoing.
From :
Trannyman0101@aol.com
To :
eduelist@hotmail.com
Subject : (no subject)
Date : Tue, 17 Dec 2002 20:33:11 EST
do you want a front or rear planet ?call us at 718 626 4315.fax your order at the same number. front planet is 225 with cryo ,rear is 280 with cryo gears .
