blow-off valve?

[Sleeper-6]

Just my $.02

Well, i just figured that I would throw my two cents in here. I do have a BOV valve sitting in my garage. I just haven't gotten around to getting the fitting welded on to the up-pipe yet. I have one form Tial, gray anodized, no bells or whistles or funky air horns, just function. I've tried rolling out of the throttle, but it doesen't seem to work for me. I figure it can't hurt. I realize on a manual car that the throttle plate gets shut on every shift witch can be dozens of times in asimple ride across town so there is prob a much greater benifit in that application. I tend to get into boost quite often and am always hearing that typical "sneeze" when I let out of it, so I'm just attempting to prevent some wear and tear.

 

[Rogue Leader]

Re: Just my $.02

Originally posted by Sleeper-6
I tend to get into boost quite often and am always hearing that typical "sneeze" when I let out of it, so I'm just attempting to prevent some wear and tear.

I like the Sneeze tho... it scares animals and small children LOL

 

[Buick Beginner]

Another 2 cents

A BOV is a tool to help your turbo take it a little easier on the thrust bearing. That's all. Just like a Kenne Bell Oil Pressure Boost plate is a tool to increase your oil pressure. Are either needed? Probably not, but perhaps by having it you may help your investment last longer. - BB

 

[Steve Wood]

Re: Another 2 cents

Originally posted by Buick Beginner
A BOV is a tool to help your turbo take it a little easier on the thrust bearing. That's all. Just like a Kenne Bell Oil Pressure Boost plate is a tool to increase your oil pressure. Are either needed? Probably not, but perhaps by having it you may help your investment last longer. - BB

I believe it is a tool to help a manual shift car stay spooled when the the clutched is dropped on a shift. I have never heard of any evidence, empirical or anecdotal, that demonstrated that the thrust bearing life was extended in any kind of test other than supposition. I think that people listen to the noise of the turbo despooling and decide it is a plausible story. I ran one for some time and came to the conclusion that it could cause more problems that it might cure as others pointed above.

If you are happy with yours and believe that it is helping, or, you like the noise...why the heck not?

If you are considering buying one, call John Craig and ask him his opinion.

 

[STP]

Well Craig is first class in my book, but what do you expect a guy that sells turbochargers to say when you ask him if a BOV is necessary? It's smart business, plain as day....Even if a BOV might not be needed, it's cheeeep insurance IMO. FWIW I've personally disassembled a hundred or so turbochargers and have seen first hand what compressor surge can do to a thrust bearing. However, the 360 degree thrust bearings used in most aftermarket turbos sold today do take substantially more abuse....

 

[V6UnderPressure]

Originally posted by TurboDave
To say they must be needed just because ATR sells them, well.... I wont even go there (even though I have their exhaust system on my cars, and wouldn't have any other).

But you get the point. I'm so sick of everyone bringing up ricers. Leave them guys alone and MYOB. Do what you do and let it be. Make your own opinions and let it be. Anyone that brings ricers into the picture is obviously a little disgruntled because right now IN THE YEAR 2003, they are taking some of the "Thunder". Deny it all you want, and yes it sucks. But it is the truth. If you don't like BOV's, then just voice that opinion. I see no reason to bring up ricers, and the sound that it makes, blah blah blah. Get to the point and keep it there.

Scott

 

[turbo nasty]

the import market incorporates a factory BOV in on auto and manual tranny turbo cars. it routes it back to the intake tract.
Unfortunately it is fact that the US auto market has very few cars that have had forced induction stock as compared to the Japanese cars in Japan.
I lived there for years and they have an ungodly amount of turbo charged engines stock in car models that we never see and they all have the BOV stock for a reason.
Import or not the principles are there compressor surge causes extra stress on the bearings, wheels, etc.
Change is not readily excepted...human nature.

If I were to put a turbo in service with a warranty I would want the end user to have a BOV and a timer.

Turbo timers are in the same league, all should let their cars idle at least 2 mins no matter what and more if the motor has been ran hard.
Most don't ...Cars from the factory in Japan have a timer stock once again the japanese market in the states never recieved many of these models so the turbo market was slim..over there it is standard practice...U have a turbo you have a timer and a BOV.

If the market was saturated with turbocharged cars and trucks over here (too bad there is not that many) we would see these items.
My buck and Quota

 

[Sinful6]

Offtopic, But if anyone reading this happens to have a spare ATR BOV that works, and is looking to sell it, I am an interested buyer. I'd appreciate it.

email: dcc@japan.com





-DC

 

[Steve Wood]

Originally posted by turbo nasty
the import market incorporates a factory BOV in on auto and manual tranny turbo cars. it routes it back to the intake tract.

Import or not the principles are there compressor surge causes extra stress on the bearings, wheels, etc.
Change is not readily excepted...human nature.

My buck and Quota

Compressor surge is a different phenomena. It occurs when the compressor tries to operate at a speed to the left of the surge line on the compressor map. It causes a condition where the compressor can not decide which way to turn due to low air flow and it begins to pulse rather than spin smoothly.

If one has a big turbo, when going about 20% throttle, or so, and the manifold pressure begins to transition from vacuum to boost, the car will shake like a wet dog as the turbo gets confused and tries to spin, but won't. Normally one has to lift and then plant the pedal harder to get the car moving. This usually happens between 0-10# at very light throttle inputs. Proper turbo selection for the intended use can help minimize this problem. Picking a turbo with a compressor map where the the surge line is more parallel to the Y axis helps. See John Estill's article on the subject on gnttype.org.


I think compressor slam is a better term for the current topic of discussion. Trying to compare small turbos with small inlet volumes to our cars is apples and oranges...it is not that we don't want to learn new things.....we just prefer that there be some evidence to support the claims as we bought our share of magic parts years ago.

Buick turbo makers went to 360 deg thrust bearings years ago when the big shaft turbos first became popular. More apples and oranges.

Saying John Craig just wants to sell more turbos shows that one does not know John very well.

 

[Steve Wood]

Sinful, I suspect the ATR is one of the worse ones to try. The outlet area is such that it is minimal compared to the inlet track area. Kinda like peeing in the ocean. As stated by others, the volume of our systems is such that the blow off is really meaningless. We don't have Japanese sized volumes.

But, if you live in the US and will send me your mailing address, I will send you one as long as you promise not to take advantage of my generosity and try to sell it to the next guy that believes in magic parts after you have grown tired of it.

 

[STP]

Steve answer this....How can a quality blow off valve possibly diminish the life of a turbocharger?

BTW Congrats on knowing John Craig so well....Could you be any more condescending?

<-----Finished with this post

 

[Steve Wood]

Condescending? I believe it was you that made the negative assertion toward John.

I have never said it would diminish the life of a turbo. I have stated that it was not needed in a Buick. There is quite a gap between the two statements.

But, yes, I can be far more condescending but childishness is not required here. This was a quite civil conversation until now.

 

[PhilthMonger]

any turbo car made in the early 90's till today comes with a BOV. may not produce some of the bling-bling effect todays' kids are looking for, but do serve a purpose. I've owned tubocharged eagle/mitsu cars, both automatic and 5-speed....both come with bov's from the factory starting in 1990. by the way, if price is an issue....the bov's from 1990-1994 eclipses / talons / lasers are good for 20psi, slightly higher if crushed. you can get one at the junkyard for the low low price of sticking it in your pocket. if you're an honest injun, pay 20 bucks for it and call it a day. there is no reason NOT to put it on your car if you can find one next to nothing. if you want to waste 300 bux on a shiny one that makes louder noises, that's your problem.

 

[STP]

What was negative about saying that a person is a smart business man/woman? Never did I question that same persons integrity. Did common sense fly out the window?

Steve, IMO this conversation has and will continue to remain civil as long as you stay open minded. However, I'm a bit confused....First you state that I was condescending, then a few lines below state that "yes, I (you) could be more condescending." What gives? Get your story straight already...Bottom line as you clearly state is "a BOV will not diminish the life of a turbocharger." Thank you for making my point. Last post unless prodded....

 

[Steve Wood]

Originally posted by STP
What was negative about saying that a person is a smart business man/woman? Never did I question that same persons integrity. Did common sense fly out the window?

Steve, IMO this conversation has and will continue to remain civil as long as you stay open minded. However, I'm a bit confused....First you state that I was condescending, then a few lines below state that "yes, I (you) could be more condescending." What gives? Get your story straight already...Bottom line as you clearly state is "a BOV will not diminish the life of a turbocharger." Thank you for making my point. Last post unless prodded....

You made a sarcastic post questioning John's integrity by implication. I contended that he is not the kind of person who would fail to sell a product that would enhance the life of his products in spite of your assertion to the contrary.

Last time I checked, this thread was about the potential benefit of a bov...not that it would harm a turbo. I don't recall seeing anyone contend that it would diminish a turbo's life. There was a valid comment about the potential difficulty in running varying boost levels and setting a bov to work properly in that configuration. That does not pertain to wear and tear at all.

My contention was, is, and will remain, that a bov is a waste of money on a product when it comes to Buicks. I don't care what it may do for a small engine with a small intake volume between the turbo and the tb. I am happy to agree with you that it does not increase wear and tear. But, I will also contend it is a waste of money.

Put your testosterone back in your pocket where it may be useful and try to argue with what I say and not what you think I said.

 

[turbosam6]

John Craig probably knows more about turbos than anyone, and he doesn't recommend them on TR's because they are not necessary. He will sell turbos irregardless, because he has a good reputation and happy customers. He would recommend BOV's if they would extend turbo life, because it would only help his reputation.

The only reason I have been so aggressive against BOV's is because so many new TR owners post here regarding the turbo flutter they hear and a few select members will tell this newbie that a BOV will "fix" this supposed problem, making this person believe their car is broken, when in reality that money is much better spent on a scan tool, fuel pump, or anything really. It really irks me when you see guys here who have been into TR's for less than a year now and they are giving advice when they know a lot less than they think. No flames intended here, as the main person I'm thinking of hasn't even posted here yet. I personally have posted replys to questions where other members have steered this person in a very wrong direction, simply because they don't know what the hell they are talking about. But new members don't know that, so they are defenseless. I tell people to look at the credentials of the person who is replying to you. There is a wealth of knowledge here, and some of these guys have been around a long time (some longer than others, huh Steve?) and really know their stuff. Others are newbies themselves and can't even change their own oil, but will tell you in a heartbeat that your cam sensor is bad or something when they couldn't point it out on the engine itself.

My opinion of BOV's lies with that of Steve Woods and TurboDaves, not needed on a TR. They are simply "Go Bling".

 

[Steve Wood]

Originally posted by turbosam6
John Craig probably knows more about turbos than anyone, and he doesn't recommend them on TR's because they are not necessary. He will sell turbos irregardless, because he has a good reputation and happy customers. He would recommend BOV's if they would extend turbo life, because it would only help his reputation.

Thanks for expressing it better than I did. If John believed they would extend the life but did not suggest them...that might get him more repair business but it would not make him a better businessman, it would, however, make him unethical in my eyes. It's probably a generation gap thing as to what makes up integrity.

The only thing that has been concluded in this discussion is that I am a lot dumber than Dave because I did not shut up after posting the first time!

Sinful, I shipped you the bov and a matching up pipe. Have fun with it.

 

[V6UnderPressure]

Originally posted by Steve Wood
But, if you live in the US and will send me your mailing address, I will send you one as long as you promise not to take advantage of my generosity and try to sell it to the next guy that believes in magic parts after you have grown tired of it.

Still have it steve?

 

[Steve Wood]

No, sorry, I shipped it to him while ago. Otherwise I would have been happy to send it to you.

 

[STP]

Hrm, hard to tell if I was indeed prodded or not....No doubt JC is the man for turbos. He gets my business now that a late close friend of mine in John Myers passed away. Just a FYI for others involved in this post, I am no expert and don't pretend to be. However, quite a bit of knowledge has been gained from 10 years of tinkering with these cars.

Are they needed? Probably not, but for $150 bux on a $1500 turbo i'd rather not take the chance on what a supposed expert might say.

Gonna leave the testosterone comment alone for now....We'll see if that comes back to bite.