Beware of COTTON PERFORMER.

[Otto J]

I will clear a few details here also.

Joey brought the car to me to check the tune.
The WOT tune was spot on,there was some drivabilty and starting
issues i addressed these.Car made in the 560HP range,a bit low for the caliber of parts the cars has from my experience, but the a/f ratio and timing were where they needed to be.

The car was taken to the track and Joey asked me to make a pass in it.
I found the convertor in the car to be very loose and pretty much just driving through it and trans flared between the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts.
At no point was there a problem showing itself with the engine.
Joey called and asked me to do his trans and convertor and when he drove the car here he had said he heard a noise on hte way over that he had not heard previously,He asked i check for a noise.

I did the trans first without checking for any noise as i did not hear anything moving the car in and out of the shop and was not expecting to find an engine knock, upon test driving the car the first time i accelerated i had heard a knock and called Joey.
Up on dissasembly of the engine it was clear that the 2 center main bearings were worn badly,All the rod bearings where good.
The engine did have 2 new billet center caps installed on the rebuild according the original invoice. I am no engine builder, but the 2 bearings that had failed where on the new billet main caps,This is why Bison had spoke about possible line bore issue.

 

[joeynj]

Sorry again for the misunderstanding, but you are absolutely wrong. We discussed RPE, I told Joey Bobby would not even take a motor from us, he was backed up. RPE already had several motors from us inline waiting to build. I then told him of our other engine builder who was available and he could look at his blown up motor right away. I thought I was very clear, again, if you didn't understand that,I'm sorry. As for the actual time table... we needed a crankshaft, that backed us way up and Joey also knew that. During the build it was changed several times, after we paid to have his stock heads rebuilt and set up for a roller cam, he decided to go with Champion heads, had to order them in. There was a good chunk of money that went to the heads being freshened that was part of the 2500. I'm not 100 % sure but we also waited for several other parts from Champion that delayed us, all of which Joey was told of. We also were unable to use Joeys original pistons and had to special order in the 40 over pistons. Never once did I say anything about RPE taking 10 months to build the motor other than when we spoke with Joey from the beginning and it was decided to use RAD. Now to go there and say the "line bore" was bad is just wrong at this point. I have spoken with Bob at RPE several times about Joeys motor, he could not tell me what happened to the bottom end. I asked him point blank. I have a difficult time blaming the line bore when a car is driven for 5-6 months with the kind of HP it was making. There was nothing inferior about the machine work, they have built many motors for us the last couple of years with ZERO failures. I also believe you have left out a few key details, one is that the transmission was bad from the beginning, not good with a HP motor and combo. I understand while racing 3rd gear was being blown thru, not good. There were other "problems" that arose with completing the project, we had major overheating problems out of the box, it took us several weeks, on and off and calls to joey trying to figure out what was going on with the car prior to him bringing it in. He had an aluminum radiator he said was new, it didn't look new, but our testing pointed to a bad radiator and he insisted it couldn't be bad. In the end we pulled it out, replaced it and all was well. Turns out the radiator imploded and could not cool the coolant with no air passing through the tubes.

You left out other details about where your husband was the last 2 months before he picked it up, I told him we were almost done, he said he was leaving the country for at least a month and would pick the car up when he returned. We were ready but he kept laughing at me and telling me "I pay with cash" when he came back and "you be very happy".. Then when he came back, he refused to pay the whole bill because he "pay with cash" we haggled back and forth he loaded up his used parts he could take, a few of which he wasn't supposed to and he left. That's the last time I saw Joey, or heard from him. You also left out other details, but that's about all I can say. I don't want to get into a tug or war here. I did nothing to wrong, I absolutely am clear where the motor went to be built and that the choice was given to Joey about the time table and he made the choice to go to RAD. If there was a problem with the motor, all he had to do was call me and bring it in.

After picking up the car a few months later we took it to the track 1 time and the bottom end broke right then. Later that week we took our car to Otto's because it was closer to our home. Otto called Bobby at RPE explaining what happened. Bobby told us to bring it in and if it was RPE's work then he'll fix it without charge. Bobby called us personally saying it was not their work. We decided not to bring our car back to you because we no longer trust you. How could we trust or speak to you when you lied that RPE would install the motor and then over charged us? Otto has nothing to do with this post.

I just want to address this part directly... first off, I have no problem with Otto or his work, but it seems we are missing something here in this section. Did the car not go to Otto for dyno tuning prior to the track visit 5 months after you picked up the car? Also, what exactly happened at the track, seems kind of vaque there as well. Didn't the car go back to Otto for a transmission when the problem with the bottom end began? So to say you don't trust me is why the car didn't go back to me is not quite acurate. When your husband picked up his car from me, he really broke my chops paying the bill, so I would say our relationship was strained from there. I know it was from my perspective. It just seems to me, you are conveniently changing parts of this story to fit your agenda. I'm sorry you hurt the bottom end. I did not over charge you, the head work was included in the machine shop charge, not just the lower end. By the way how was the motor before hurting it, how was the oil pressure for 5 months, how did it run? I didn't hear of any problems after your car was worked on by others, until it was hurt..

As for engine builders, RPE is and always has been our engine builder of choice, over the years Bobby's services have been used by many Buick owners through out the country, his timetable for delivering motors has risen and not all of our customers want to wait. We have given the choice to our customers as to who builds their motors, I would never sell an RPE motor and use someone else's work in place of it. NEVER, that would be suicide...

What Champion heads are you talking about change to Champion heads . Those are the heads that came with the car they're already Champion heads to begin with . So saying that you have to wait on Champion is a lies.

The $2500 on the receipts you wrote was just for the bottomend machine work. I just want to clear thing out about the bills, it was $17000ish for a POS . If it was $2500 I wouldnt cry about it.

Thanks Brian and Otto for looking after my car and my Cuz. I know this time my car really have an RPE bottom end.

I wonder why I got charged for Cometic headgasket and the gasket blown on the first test drive before I left the country. Cometic is not made to be blow ,correct me if am wrong .That's why I did'nt give you all the money that day, I only want to give $2500 more on that day, who would be stupid enough to pay in full if the job is not done.

Again Otto have nothing to do with this, Lenny was the one who's introduce me to Otto for a fine tune, and an dyno.

 

[TURBO 6]

I guess Shane's post was ignored....Let's keep this between the parties involved.

 

[88 CuttyClassic]

on old supervisor told me anything under 2% error rate in business is acceptable..

i also learned that you can treat/service 100 people the exact same way but there will always be atleast one that feels they were wronged

whether the mistake was on CP or not the shop still has a very acceptable and credible success rate. The power of the dollar is that you can take it elsewhere if you want. If that man wants to take his dollar somewhere else thats his pergoative like bobby brown. If It were my money i would feel totally comfortable with CP's track record. An important thing to remember is that we are not talkin about a fouled up brake job..we are talking cars that are driven HARD... things break. If this were a repeat problem for CP (like some other businesses here) i would then put more stock into deciding where i would spend money.

 

[JCotton]

What Champion heads are you talking about change to Champion heads . Those are the heads that came with the car they're already Champion heads to begin with . So saying that you have to wait on Champion is a lies.

Joey, my mistake, I looked at the invoice this morning when I got in, we were waiting on the billet fuel rails for several months and you were told that, more than once. I am sure Tom can also verify that. Again, I have no reason to lie and nothing to gain here.

The $2500 on the receipts you wrote was just for the bottomend machine work. I just want to clear thing out about the bills, it was $17000ish for a POS . If it was $2500 I wouldnt cry about it.

And now the story is about to change again.... now the motor isn't the issue or who built it... Joey, it was all good for 6 months untill you hurt it.

Thanks Brian and Otto for looking after my car and my Cuz. I know this time my car really have an RPE bottom end.

I wonder why I got charged for Cometic headgasket and the gasket blown on the first test drive before I left the country. Cometic is not made to be blow ,correct me if am wrong .That's why I did'nt give you all the money that day, I only want to give $2500 more on that day, who would be stupid enough to pay in full if the job is not done.

Ok Joey, wrong again, they can blow, as for 2500... yep, with me carrying a $7,000 8,000 part bill for 6 months makes good business for me.
Again Otto have nothing to do with this, Lenny was the one who's introduce me to Otto for a fine tune, and an dyno.

Once again Joey, sorry for your misfortune, you could have called and let me know. I stand behind our work, always have...

 

[Black Power]

Just to help everyone out here, grammar and spelling are not the same thing, and the word "grammar" does not contain the letter "e".

GRAMMAR

Thank you,

Your local spelling & grammar Nazi
Black Power

 

[buickfreak]

blown motor

Very sad stories that leaves us stunned !

 

[joeynj]

Originally Posted by joeynj
What Champion heads are you talking about change to Champion heads . Those are the heads that came with the car they're already Champion heads to begin with . So saying that you have to wait on Champion is a lies.

Joey, my mistake, I looked at the invoice this morning when I got in, we were waiting on the billet fuel rails for several months and you were told that, more than once. I am sure Tom can also verify that. Again, I have no reason to lie and nothing to gain here.

Jack, what the hell are you talking about? First you said it took so long because you had to wait for the heads and now the rails? My cousin, Lenny, and I each bought a set. My cousin took his set home while I left mine with you. So there was no need to wait for any parts. What else can you lie about? I don’t give a damn who Tom is or he can verify that for you because you know is bull sh it.

The $2500 on the receipts you wrote was just for the bottomend machine work. I just want to clear thing out about the bills, it was $17000ish for a POS . If it was $2500 I wouldnt cry about it.

And now the story is about to change again.... now the motor isn't the issue or who built it... Joey, it was all good for 6 months untill you hurt it.

I didn’t care that the motor blew up. I’m upset because you lied to me. You said RPE would work on my car but they did not. If it really were RPE’s motor then it would not have blown up.

Thanks Brian and Otto for looking after my car and my Cuz. I know this time my car really have an RPE bottom end.

I wonder why I got charged for Cometic headgasket and the gasket blown on the first test drive before I left the country. Cometic is not made to be blow ,correct me if am wrong .That's why I did'nt give you all the money that day, I only want to give $2500 more on that day, who would be stupid enough to pay in full if the job is not done.

Ok Joey, wrong again, they can blow, as for 2500... yep, with me carrying a $7,000 8,000 part bill for 6 months makes good business for me.

Again, Jack, I paid you $16,000 in cash for the bottom end by RPE that you promised but the job was not done by RPE. You think it was okay to lie to me about cars because my English is not fluent. My point is that you have changed your story to make me look like I don’t know what I’m talking about and post this to bash your good name. I’m sure your work is good but you lied and trying to make me look like the liar. How can I trust you or refer you to my friends after what happened?

I just want to let the other Buick owners to know about my experience with Cotton’s Performance. If you spent $16,000 and your car was kept for over 1 year for service. But in the end you found out your motor was not done by RPE, which was promised to you, would you be upset, and want to tell others to beware? And now Jack is changing the true story and calling me a liar just because he thinks I don’t know anything about cars and doesn’t speak fluent English.

 

[joeynj]

Originally Posted by joeynj
What Champion heads are you talking about change to Champion heads . Those are the heads that came with the car they're already Champion heads to begin with . So saying that you have to wait on Champion is a lies.

Joey, my mistake, I looked at the invoice this morning when I got in, we were waiting on the billet fuel rails for several months and you were told that, more than once. I am sure Tom can also verify that. Again, I have no reason to lie and nothing to gain here.

****Jack, what the hell are you talking about? First you said it took so long because you had to wait for the heads and now the rails? My cousin, Lenny, and I each bought a set. My cousin took his set home while I left mine with you. So there was no need to wait for any parts. What else can you lie about? I don’t give a damn who Tom is or he can verify that for you because you know is bull sh it.*****

The $2500 on the receipts you wrote was just for the bottomend machine work. I just want to clear thing out about the bills, it was $17000ish for a POS . If it was $2500 I wouldnt cry about it.

And now the story is about to change again.... now the motor isn't the issue or who built it... Joey, it was all good for 6 months untill you hurt it.

****I didn’t care that the motor blew up. I’m upset because you lied to me. You said RPE would work on my car but they did not. If it really were RPE’s motor then it would not have blown up.****

Thanks Brian and Otto for looking after my car and my Cuz. I know this time my car really have an RPE bottom end.

I wonder why I got charged for Cometic headgasket and the gasket blown on the first test drive before I left the country. Cometic is not made to be blow ,correct me if am wrong .That's why I did'nt give you all the money that day, I only want to give $2500 more on that day, who would be stupid enough to pay in full if the job is not done.

Ok Joey, wrong again, they can blow, as for 2500... yep, with me carrying a $7,000 8,000 part bill for 6 months makes good business for me.

****Again, Jack, I paid you $16,000 in cash for the bottom end by RPE that you promised but the job was not done by RPE. You think it was okay to lie to me about cars because my English is not fluent. My point is that you have changed your story to make me look like I don’t know what I’m talking about and post this to bash your good name. I’m sure your work is good but you lied and trying to make me look like the liar. How can I trust you or refer you to my friends after what happened?

I just want to let the other Buick owners to know about my experience with Cotton’s Performance. If you spent $16,000 and your car was kept for over 1 year for service. But in the end you found out your motor was not done by RPE, which was promised to you, would you be upset, and want to tell others to beware? And now Jack is changing the true story and calling me a liar just because he thinks I don’t know anything about cars and doesn’t speak fluent English.****

 

[TurboBuRick]

If the motor had no problems, it would not matter who built it. There would be no issue. Because there is a problem, you are salty and looking to point the finger. For 17g's I don't blame you but there is a another problem here, the fact that the motor has been down the track more than once and had no problems. If there had been a machining problem, you never would made it down the track let alone a second time. I'm sure Otto and Bison would agree.

Not taking sides here, just laying out some facts.

 

[daves87gn]

Wow, get over yourself.

I think you should do a little research about people before you make comments about them, Bison is a stand up guy and hit the nail on the head with his comment... but what can you expect from someone who joined last month

 

[joeynj]

If the motor had no problems, it would not matter who built it. There would be no issue. Because there is a problem, you are salty and looking to point the finger. For 17g's I don't blame you but there is a another problem here, the fact that the motor has been down the track more than once and had no problems. If there had been a machining problem, you never would made it down the track let alone a second time. I'm sure Otto and Bison would agree.

Not taking sides here, just laying out some facts.

You did not work on my car or driven it so you can't possibly know what happened. I took my car to the track once and that was enough for the motor to blow up. Did I mention that my cousin and I bought the whole set from Jack? I just want the Buick community to know what happened to me not to tell you to pick a side.

 

[TurboBuRick]

You did not work on my car or driven it so you can't possibly know what happened. I took my car to the track once and that was enough for the motor to blow up. Did I mention that my cousin and I bought the whole set from Jack? I just want the Buick community to know what happened to me not to tell you to pick a side.

Doesn't matter, I know things work. If the machine work was the issue, the motor would have been waisted the first time you started it . The line bore doesn't mysteriously just decide to move one day Not unless you crack the block.

I will clear a few details here also.

Joey brought the car to me to check the tune.
The WOT tune was spot on,there was some drivabilty and starting
issues i addressed these.Car made in the 560HP range,a bit low for the caliber of parts the cars has from my experience, but the a/f ratio and timing were where they needed to be.

The car was taken to the track and Joey asked me to make a pass in it.
I found the convertor in the car to be very loose and pretty much just driving through it and trans flared between the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts.
At no point was there a problem showing itself with the engine.
Joey called and asked me to do his trans and convertor and when he drove the car here he had said he heard a noise on hte way over that he had not heard previously,He asked i check for a noise.

I did the trans first without checking for any noise as i did not hear anything moving the car in and out of the shop and was not expecting to find an engine knock, upon test driving the car the first time i accelerated i had heard a knock and called Joey.
Up on dissasembly of the engine it was clear that the 2 center main bearings were worn badly,All the rod bearings where good.
The engine did have 2 new billet center caps installed on the rebuild according the original invoice. I am no engine builder, but the 2 bearings that had failed where on the new billet main caps,This is why Bison had spoke about possible line bore issue.

I rest my case.

 

[joeynj]

Doesn't matter, I know things work. If the machine work was the issue, the motor would have been waisted the first time you started it . The line bore doesn't mysteriously just decide to move one day Not unless you crack the block.







I rest my case.

Otto explained the issue perfectly clear already. THE POINT IS IT WAS NOT RPE'S WORK. JACK LIED TO ME.

 

[JCotton]

Doesn't matter, I know things work. If the machine work was the issue, the motor would have been waisted the first time you started it . The line bore doesn't mysteriously just decide to move one day Not unless you crack the block.







I rest my case.

Otto explained the issue perfectly clear already. THE POINT IS IT WAS NOT RPE'S WORK. JACK LIED TO ME.

Joey, can you please explain to us exactly what the issue is and I assume what caused it? Of course since Otto shared it with you, or is that priviledged information? I whole heartedly appreciate Rick's imput since that is the reality of the situation, anyone with any kind of basic knowledge and common sense can see that as well.

By the way, I will be working on a closing response soon, when I have some free time. I also want you to know, I don't think nor did I ever say or think you were stupid, ignorant about cars or anything else. In fact, I always thought you were a pretty intelligent guy, but I have to say, you have this all wrong here.

 

[moparkid]

IF EVERYONE but the OP and Jack, or someone directly related to this, posts I WILL CLOSE IT...

There are always at least 2 sides to a story...

Being in Jacks shoes, as a shop owner, I know people will blame things on you that are not true and hear what they want to hear... Not saying this is the case here... If you read what Jack has posted some bells should go off IMO...





I can also say I am sure Otto had nothing to do with this being posted...

I have to agree with the quote above. I too own a small business, and learned fast you can't please everyone - Even though I still try every day. With that said, sometimes you have customers you need to fire.

I don't know Otto, or Jack Cotton. However, since joining this board 6 months ago I've learned a lot about TR's from many other members here, including both gentleman mentioned above. If anyone has a question regarding a TR, this is the first place to come to get the correct answer.

IMO from the 3 pages I've read, joeyNJ is pissed off because he hatched his engine making passes down the track. It don't matter if you got $25 or $25,000 in your drivetrain - you can still break something. If your trans was slipping in between shifts, allowing your engine to over-rev, well.... pop goes the weasel. BTDT, **** happens. However, just because one paid cash to have a super 6 built, that doesn't give you the right to automatically blame Cotton's for your negligence. I can understand your frustration but man up for yourself, dude. I've seen it time and time again with customers, "Ever since you changed my brake light bulb the car shakes at 55 mph." I've dealt with too many people that can't take responsibility for there own actions.


As I said before, sometimes customers need to be shown the door and reminded to never come back. Just my two wooden nickles...

 

[joeynj]

I have to agree with the quote above. I too own a small business, and learned fast you can't please everyone - Even though I still try every day. With that said, sometimes you have customers you need to fire.

I don't know Otto, or Jack Cotton. However, since joining this board 6 months ago I've learned a lot about TR's from many other members here, including both gentleman mentioned above. If anyone has a question regarding a TR, this is the first place to come to get the correct answer.

IMO from the 3 pages I've read, joeyNJ is pissed off because he hatched his engine making passes down the track. It don't matter if you got $25 or $25,000 in your drivetrain - you can still break something. If your trans was slipping in between shifts, allowing your engine to over-rev, well.... pop goes the weasel. BTDT, **** happens. However, just because one paid cash to have a super 6 built, that doesn't give you the right to automatically blame Cotton's for your negligence. I can understand your frustration but man up for yourself, dude. I've seen it time and time again with customers, "Ever since you changed my brake light bulb the car shakes at 55 mph." I've dealt with too many people that can't take responsibility for there own actions.


As I said before, sometimes customers need to be shown the door and reminded to never come back. Just my two wooden nickles...

My point was not about the blew up motor. All motors broke. My point was I spent $16,000 for my car and deserve to know the truth. I wanted my car to be worked on by RPE not some other mechanics. Jack told me it was done by RPE it was not and then made up some stories to make me look like the liar. You are not my mechanic then you have no rights to bash me. You own a small business does not mean that you have good people skills.

 

[joeynj]

Joey, can you please explain to us exactly what the issue is and I assume what caused it? Of course since Otto shared it with you, or is that priviledged information? I whole heartedly appreciate Rick's imput since that is the reality of the situation, anyone with any kind of basic knowledge and common sense can see that as well.

By the way, I will be working on a closing response soon, when I have some free time. I also want you to know, I don't think nor did I ever say or think you were stupid, ignorant about cars or anything else. In fact, I always thought you were a pretty intelligent guy, but I have to say, you have this all wrong here.

The issue is that you lied to me. RPE did not work on my motors. That is the whole point.

 

[EVIL]

If you pay attention to his first post he states that he was told his engine was being built by RPE and it was not built by RPE.

That is what is in question and that is why he is upset.

We all know engines break.

 

[notacarlo]

Keep this up and this thread will be closed and a resolution will never "air".

OP
Jack

The moderators can add their two cents to help round the conversation to an end.

Other interested parties will only inflame the situation.