atr liquid intercoolers

[TurboBeagle84]

anyone using one here? i saw a few turbo regals today at a cruise with them, they look pretty cool, they say they work very good too. they are the first turbo regal's i have ever seen with liquid intercoolers. im just curious to what some other guys think of them.

 

[Chuck Leeper]

H2o I/C

Might be a good topic for the parking lot BS sessions, but until the engine is putting out enough beans to go REALLY FFFAAASSST, it's a high maintenence, hi priced part that's not needed.
W/ the price at $2000, [and that's not including installation parts, etc], there's a whole lot bigger bang for bucks being spent elsewhere.
Opinions, opinions, everybody has 1!! That's mine

 

[Spoolinup]

Those are not worth the dough anymore, just a conversation starter.

V1=$1000
Smc alky=$375
OR
Propane injection=$425

And your kicking the liquids butt hard. They are great for the track when you can keep refilling with cold water, but not after an hour on the street. Installation looks like a case of beer is needed.

 

[86brick]

Well opinions definately vary on the topic of ATRs Liquid Intercooler, but last time I checked Cal Hartline liked it when he had one and I've heard others that have it say it's actually pretty low maintenance cause from what I've heard you don't have to refill it all the time and all you have to do once in a while is flush it like you would with a radiator which isn't that big of a deal. I wish somebody who actually has one would step in this conversation cause I'm interested in buying one and it seems like everybody who doesn't have one likes to bash it for whatever reason Sure it's not cheap, but neither are ball bearing turbos and it seems like anything that's a little more costly always gets bashed by guys that have never actually bought the product!

 

[Spoolinup]

But 86 brick, why would you spend $2000 and then $12 for a case of miller high life, when for $1375, a V1 and smc alky kit will cool down the inlet temps way more than that atr liquid intercooler will?

With the V1 extruded tube at 94% effecient and then the kick butt alky kits out there, it can not come close in cooling. I never heard anyone say they could run 24 psi on a liquid intercooler on pump gas.

If the price was lower, like $1000 than maybe, but not for $2000. People bash it due to the performance per dollar, install and that after an hour on the street, it losses a ton of effeciency. It only shines at the track when you can keep refilling it with really cold water. But that still does not touch the alky.

No flame, but when you can save hundreds of dollars and out perform the alternative, then its time for part retirement.

 

[86brick]

Yes, but the ATR liquid intercooler will mount in the stock location and the V1 FM will most definately cause overheating problems and if you buy a V1 for $1k and then buy all the cooling system upgrades like a new 3 pass aluminum radiator from CAS which is about $550 and then a nice dual spal fan kit will cost you about $300 and add in the price of the SMC alky kit which is $375, so keeping in mind you'll have to upgrade the cooling system the cost is actually a little more for the V1 FM with the alky kit. Also, I'm not much for the look of a FM cause it's a dead give away of a fast car. I'm sure the install is easier with a FM or a stock location stretch intercooler like the V4, but this does not mean the liquid intercooler is a waste of money IMO. I'll probably end up buying a V4 or a brand new in the box PTE FM that I can buy for $600, but if I had the money to spend on a new V1 FM or the ATR liquid intercooler it wouldn't be an easy decision cause I think both are great intercoolers and there's no need to bash either one. Just my 2 cents

 

[Intercooler]

Originally posted by 86brick
Yes, but the ATR liquid intercooler will mount in the stock location and the V1 FM will most definately cause overheating problems and if you buy a V1 for $1k and then buy all the cooling system upgrades like a new 3 pass aluminum radiator from CAS which is about $550 and then a nice dual spal fan kit will cost you about $300 and add in the price of the SMC alky kit which is $375, so keeping in mind you'll have to upgrade the cooling system the cost is actually a little more for the V1 FM with the alky kit. Also, I'm not much for the look of a FM cause it's a dead give away of a fast car. I'm sure the install is easier with a FM or a stock location stretch intercooler like the V4, but this does not mean the liquid intercooler is a waste of money IMO. I'll probably end up buying a V4 or a brand new in the box PTE FM that I can buy for $600, but if I had the money to spend on a new V1 FM or the ATR liquid intercooler it wouldn't be an easy decision cause I think both are great intercoolers and there's no need to bash either one. Just my 2 cents

Brick, I couldn't agree with you less! Do I need to post a picture of the front of my car with the V2 installed? Unless you got down on the ground or up real close to see the pipes I gurantee you will not detect it. If you have a fairly new high effeciency radiator (not the 14 year old stocker) and a fan that works properly that is all you need with a FM. Liquid intercoolers for the street are not ideal especially with what they cost! You must run a stock location IC

 

[Intercooler]

Now where is that V2 FM? Trust me it is there!


http://home.att.net/~jesse.adkins/Front1.JPG

 

[86brick]

I stand corrected! Intercooler, .........

I had heard that the V2 and V1 were pretty damn big like the PTE FM and pretty easy to spot, but from the pic you posted that's not the case. Do you have to pay extra to have the V2 painted or powder coated black from CAS? That's pretty darn stealthy looking for a FM compared to the pics of Cottons FM and the PTE FM which I saw and I was also told the Cottons FM is about the same size as the V1. I do have an old ATR 15 row stock location IC now, but later I'll be looking to upgrade so I guess the V2 is the way to go if I want a FM cause it's not easy to detect like I thought. The V4 will still probably be the intercooler I'll be using cause for the times I want to run (mid to low 11's, maybe a high 10) it's been proven that a FM is NOT needed and the only difference will be my car running hotter

 

[dpok69]

If you really want to guys, you can fabricate an injection system that sprays ice cold carbon dioxide (like the ones used in paintball cannistors) onto the intercoolers.

 

[Steve Wood]

The ATR style liquid IC is great on the strip. It's not much use on the street except for special occasions.


The V4 and similar stock location ics are great for down to the mid 10 type cars that get street driven a lot.


Front mounts, otherwise, can cause cooling problems in areas like mine where temps routinely run 98-102 with high humidity or areas like AZ where it is 110+, if you want to sit in traffic with the AC on. I never had a problem unless the temp was past 90 degs.

I have several years of learning how to be cool with one in place. I would only go V4 style down here for a street car and probably have better spool and less surge to boot if I were to do it again.

I wonder how long those welds would hold up if one kept shocking them with a CO2 spray? Metal can get pretty brittle at excessively cold temps.

 

[S2V6RACER]

I would be interested in the spooling results on a hot day running the ATR or any liquid intercooler.

Front mount, stock location, 94% efficient whatever, won't do a thing when you are at the lights and building boost on a hot day.

JMHO.

 

[postal]

Hmmmm. The efficiency of an air to air intercooler is directly related to the speed of the cooling air passing across the core. Order a spearco catalog they will have it all plotted out for you for the different cores they sell. So then take these thick front mounts and stick them in front of the radiator. Now a car that can sit there not moving at all and run all day with out over heating, suddenly cant stop from over heating unless your at high way speeds. This over heats because you cant get enough air through the radiator, doesnt this mean there isnt really any air passing across the core of the intercooler? So know doesnt that mean that our 94% efficiency statement is nothing more than a marketing tool? Also the efficiency of an intercooler is changes with the amount of air your trying to cool down. The more CFM your trying to cool with a given IC the lower your efficiency. I have run a PTE FM on a GN and liked it but had over heating probs and swore off ever buying another FM. I then Had a stretch in a TTA and had no ground clearance, so that idea was scratched(but would recommend for a GN that isnt lowered). Now Iam installing a ATR liquid in my TTA. I decided to go with the liquid because the people who manufacture IC cores consider a liquid IC far superior to an air/air unit. Iam not talking about the people who make IC kits but the core manufactures them selves. They are the ones who wrap up all the dough in R&D and have all the fancy test equipment. I think its save to say that companys like spearco know more about liquid IC's and there potential than some hobbyist that have never even ran one.

HTH: Jason
Back in the late 80's Buddy Ingersoll's 268 cu. in. twin turbo Buick v6 was banned from competing against 700 cu. in. pro stockers. He ran 7.23 @ 198mph @ 25#'s of boost. They kept penalizing him and making him add weight to his car. Finally they just banned the car for making the mega inch nitrous motors look bad. They say the car was making 1250hp and over 1000ft. lbs. of torque. Any guess what he was running for an IC ??? He was running a pair of stock intercoolers that where boxed and converted to liquid IC's....I just got back from the nationals and I dont remember seeing to many 198 mph stage 2 cars (was there any?). 14 years of technology and bigger badder air/air units cant out do a pair of converted stockers........Hmmmmmmm are the mass produced air to air units the real deal or are they just one of the many easy sell items that made all these venders rich? and are the liquid IC so expensive because they are small run custom set ups or because they are the real deal for making big HP?

Want another kicker?........ Buddy ran a manual transmission!

 

[Spoolinup]

>So know doesnt that mean that our 94% efficiency statement is nothing more than a marketing tool? <

Check this out from the flow tunnel, the real testing ground.

Air Flow (FPM) Air Flow (MPH) Efficiency (@73.4 lb/min)
200--------------2.27----------------80%
400--------------4.55----------------84%
600--------------6.82----------------87%
800--------------9.09----------------89%
1000------------11.36---------------90%
1200------------13.64---------------91%
1400------------15.91---------------93%
>The more CFM your trying to cool with a given IC the lower your efficiency. <

1500-------------17.05---------------94%

Marketing tool, No.
Is the new core technology super efficient, Yes.

We are not arguing that if you keep flushing out the liquid at the track that it will not offer great efficiency. But how much more efficient is the liquid worth per dollar than the V1 at 94% on a fast car? The liquid will never get to 100% efficient. MAYBE 97% with super cold water, so is 3% worth $1000? IMO no way.

AT 2 MPH THE V1 IS 80 % EFFICIENT

Then add, who wins a race at 2 mph of air, the car is going to be flying so the wind will be there for the air to air to be efficient where it matters.

Spearco cores are NOT the standard of excellence any more. They have been passed up now TWICE in core technology. If you talked to them, ask them why they have not switched their cores to extruded tube yet? Oh ya, its really expensive to tool and over the boarder labor is cheap to braze together the sheet stocks to make the bar and plate cores they use. You were talking to the least efficient core maker out there now. Call CAS and ask questions.

Key to your racer story is late 80's bar and plate vs liquid. Liquid wins. Now we are talking about the addition of the newest cores and alky. The liquid can not compete dollar per dollar anymore. Does it mean they suck, no, does it mean there are WAY better ways to spend your money and get the hp you want, yes.

Sorry you wasted your money, but if I can inform others not to waste $2000 on a liquid intercooler to run 11's or even 10's when if they knew more about the other options, I will. My opinion again.

Tony Dequick is an engineer that used to work for a top intercooler company and if he thought the liquids were so cream, he would push them more. They are $1000 MORE than his V1. If he was greedy, he would not of spent tons of dough on the tooling for the extruded tube cores. Or put out stock locations ics for $700 that kill others front mounts, spearco cored front mounts that is.

But what do I know, I am just a hobbiest with a keyboard.
Race on

 

[PRSRIZD_V6]

Hmm all the speaking of drain liquid ICs at the track has me wondering. The typhoon/syclone had a liquid IC didn't it? It was a street car, so why couldn't you rig up a sy/ty type heat exchanger and pump to keep the water cool? Then just ice the heat exchanger at the track.

A cheaper alternative to the ATR job that I see right now would be to buy a V4S from Tony D and build a tin water box for it. A couple of fittings and a little hose, a heat exchanger and pump and you've got a liquid intercooler for....

V4S: $500
Water Pump: $35
Heat exchanger: $35
Hose 3/8": $10
brass fittings/ hose clamps: $12
DIY water box: $20
wiring: $8

overestimated all costs, the grand total is still only $620

The way I look at it you can have your high efficiency core, your ground clearance, your cool running stock radiator, and liquid IC. The only comprimise would be weight.

 

[86brick]

Well there's a guy down here that uses the stock intercooler modified with a home made cool box and from what I've been told he uses dry ice. This seems to be very efficient for cooling the charged air, but honestly I think the bottom line is buy what you like since all these intercoolers (FM, liquid, or even the stock location intercooler) all seem to have about the same performance gains on the average 11 or 10 sec TR. From what everybody has said it seems like the liquid intercooler is great for the track, but for a street car the FM or stock located intercoolers work the best and will give you the most bang for your buck.

 

[re-evaluating]

lets compare apples to oranges

"a V1 and smc alky kit will cool down the inlet temps way more than that atr liquid intercooler will?"

I am responding to LIQUID INTERCOOLERS in general NOT atr's Spoolinup no disrespect here but what were the inlet temps with your V1 and the alky kit. Could you provide me with some data logs to support this.


"With the V1 extruded tube at 94% efficient and then the kick butt alky kits out there, it can not come close in cooling.

"I disagree: at 94% efficient that means you will be able to reach 94% of the ambient temp, with a liquid I have seen inlet temps well below ambient, below 40* F at the starting line. When you start well below what an air to air could attain if they were 100% you are way ahead of the ball game.
DON'T MISUNDERSTAND all the CAS products are GREAT I would highly recommend them all. But if you want the lowest inlet temps possible give Tony a call and he can build you a liquid that will make up a couple tenths on a fast car when it is hot out.

"If the price was lower, like $1000 than maybe, but not for $2000. People bash it due to the performance per dollar, install and that after an hour on the street, it losses a ton of efficiency. It only shines at the track when you can keep refilling it with really cold water. But that still does not touch the alky."

I agree: Yes they are expensive. You actually fill them with ice at the track. Again I disagree: just use a heat exchanger and it is still better than any front mount on the street. In a word don't knock it if you haven't tried it. Have a nice day. Dave

 

[Spoolinup]

We are comparing $1000 to $2000.
There is a lot of money at stake here

Liquid intercoolers at the end of a run will NEVER BE 100% EFFICIENT!! You are breaking the physics law of common sense.
So, your trying to say that an inlet temp of say 300 degrees into the intercooler, and an outside temp of say 80 degrees, that the liquid at the end of the run will show an outlet temp of 80 degrees or even lower

It MIGHT be 89 degrees (97%) tops. Realistically more like 95 degrees (95%), and thats if the inlet is 300 degrees and you have ice from Antartica. The V1 will be around 98 degrees (94%)and that is only if you have a fast car pushing alot of cfm. Actually, most guys will not achieve the 94% efficiency of that front mount due to the air flow needed to achieve it (turbo size). So it will be more like 107 (91%).
But look at this to see what I mean
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/sh...ght=best front mount intercooler&pagenumber=3
Turbo Tr has all the proof needed to not WASTE $1000.

And who cares what the outlet temp is at idle. There is no heat from the turbo going through the darn thing yet. The V1 air to air will come realisticaly within 3 to 4 % the efficiency of the liquid at the end of the run. Then, add the alky to cool on top of that. No contest, and $600 cheaper.

Look at the alky section, see what guys are running on pump gas, a front mount and alky. Then ask someone with a liquid intercooler how much boost they run on pump gas. Bet it is not within 3 psi on the same timing and turbo size. That should give you an idea of who has the cooler inlet temp.

The flow tunnel test on the V1 was with a 350 degree inlet temp.

Wheres the liquids flow tunnel results?
If they are the intercooler gods that are worth the extra $1000, then why has no one put it in the oven with 350 degree air going through it? I know, who would spend $1000 for 3% more efficiency? Keep it all smoke and let us bash it out.

Hard to compare even apples to oranges when the liquids all speculation, unlike the flow tunnel results from the V1.

More like apples, and water balloons.

Not flaming here,
Lets get the goods out on the table and go with what you feels worth it thats all.

 

[DR BOOST]

hmmmm...
1. the v1 tries to cool the charge close to ambient air temps.

2. the atr tries to cool the charge close to ice water temps.

94 % efficiency is only relevant when comparing air to air intercoolers.

the exchange surface of the v1 will never be as cold as ice water.

in racing conditions the atr is better.

im still waiting for the conclusive evidence( track times) that this new intercooler technology ( extruded core) will make our cars go faster.

till then ill stick with my precision ( yes, the same one i sold my v2 to get)

surej

 

[n20junkie]

i think those great flow numbers on the air/air units do not take into consideration a big factor, a radiator behind it, if you slow down the air in behind a intercooler, then the air in front of it will also slow down, and as with anything in life, if you make it yourself, it will be cheap, you can get 2 liquid to air units for 1,200, 100 for tank material, and 100 for tubing, and you have a 1,400 dollar unit, tank might add 100 more, i will pay the extra money for a far superior unit, and the story about buddy ingersol, i think that about sums it up.
Grant J Farmer