Art Carr "o" stall NL is this right for me? PTC 9.5 better??

[Tristansgn]

So this question really stems from a problem that I caused with My own ignorance! I had Len Freeman build a trans for me years back, then through a friend purchased an Art Carr "O" stall nl to put in it...did not
Know about the "non lock-up" valve that needed to be installed in the valve body, now years later I'm having my trans rebuilt! I'm not going to touch the lockup vs non lockup subject right now, but based on my combo, I'm wondering if I should get a different converter, or if the o stall will still be sufficient.
Stock block, stock heads, stock cam for now.
6766 cea billet wheel turbo
RJC front mount, 5"dp, 4" exh.
TA headers
TT chip
Razor alky
Ac delete and heater
275/60r15s
373 gears installed by previous owner (not sure why)
I have aluminum GN1s and a 218/218 cam to be installed (maybe next winter)
With the input from my friends they say I should go lock up, I'm not going that route, but from the forums, I have read all good about dustys 9.5" NLU. Keep what I have, or wait til I can drop another $950 on a new unit. This sees the street, but this isn't my "street car"

 

[jpwalt1987]

You will probably drive through the Art Carr convertor. I had an "N" code and I drove through it very easily. I would go with the PTC NL and be done with it.

 

[Tristansgn]

Sounds good, again I've heard great things. Budget wise ill plan for it ASAP, however when you say ill drive through my art Carr, what do you mean by that? Will it not hold up to the abuse?

 

[bison]

Driving through means the coupling point won't occur until the engine speed is beyond optimal. The slip % will be extremely high with that converter.

 

[robzombie]

There is a 9.5LU that you could use if you want to that will work and hold up to your combo.

It's better built than a PTC in my opinion and you can also get a NL if your heart is set on one.

The best part is they are less expensive than a PTC and the word is getting out there slowly and when enough people start buying them the prices will probably go up on them as well.

I could refer you to some trustworthy people in the buick community who are using them and will vouch for what I say.

I know someone running a NL in a high nine street/strip car and he is very happy with it and says he has quicker spooling with this converter. He is also a dealer of these converters now because they are made to his specs according to his customers needs.

All these converters are custom built to each application, the only down side is that you have to wait about a week to receive it if you want a custom built versus the same wait time on a PTC that isn't.

I can send you pics of the billet LU/NL and you can look at them and compare it to a PTC and see the difference in how they are made.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

So this question really stems from a problem that I caused with My own ignorance! I had Len Freeman build a trans for me years back, then through a friend purchased an Art Carr "O" stall nl to put in it...did not
Know about the "non lock-up" valve that needed to be installed in the valve body, now years later I'm having my trans rebuilt! I'm not going to touch the lockup vs non lockup subject right now, but based on my combo, I'm wondering if I should get a different converter, or if the o stall will still be sufficient.
Stock block, stock heads, stock cam for now.
6766 cea billet wheel turbo
RJC front mount, 5"dp, 4" exh.
TA headers
TT chip
Razor alky
Ac delete and heater
275/60r15s
373 gears installed by previous owner (not sure why)
I have aluminum GN1s and a 218/218 cam to be installed (maybe next winter)
With the input from my friends they say I should go lock up, I'm not going that route, but from the forums, I have read all good about dustys 9.5" NLU. Keep what I have, or wait til I can drop another $950 on a new unit. This sees the street, but this isn't my "street car"

It's always best to run a converter to see how it performs with a combo change before making a change. A 67 with a mostly stock engine won't spool really easy unless the converter is fairly loose and if you apply some decent power to it the low shift rpm of the stock cam will not allow the converter to couple effectively. The combo will come around with the addition of the heads and cam. You can run it as it with your current converter and see how it performs before making a decision to buy another.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

There is a 9.5LU that you could use if you want to that will work and hold up to your combo.

It's better built than a PTC in my opinion and you can also get a NL if your heart is set on one.

The best part is they are less expensive than a PTC and the word is getting out there slowly and when enough people start buying them the prices will probably go up on them as well.

I could refer you to some trustworthy people in the buick community who are using them and will vouch for what I say.

I know someone running a NL in a high nine street/strip car and he is very happy with it and says he has quicker spooling with this converter. He is also a dealer of these converters now because they are made to his specs according to his customers needs.

All these converters are custom built to each application, the only down side is that you have to wait about a week to receive it if you want a custom built versus the same wait time on a PTC that isn't.

I can send you pics of the billet LU/NL and you can look at them and compare it to a PTC and see the difference in how they are made.

Please post those pics ASAP so I can call this clown out. This is the same guy who claimed he built the high end converters for PTC and now he has something better. Lol.

The reason he needed your info is so he can go to his Sonnax parts book and pic out the parts needed for a "custom" unit. Anyone with a lathe, welder and a parts book can build a "custom" converter. That's why the core most people choose to use is the GM245 because if you can read a table, it tells you which parts to use together to reach a desired stall. Bottom line...A GM245 without a clutch can be called a 9.5non lock but it's not in the same league as my 9.5nl. Different core, different everything which is why it works like it does. The same converter a customer buys from me hasn't been 9's and claimed to be something special...it's been 6's. The 9.5 lock up and non lock built by others in the industry are the same as my 10".

Eagerly awaiting these pics.

 

[robzombie]

The 9.5 lock up and non lock built by others in the industry are the same as my 10".

I respectfully disagree with you on that.

Bottom line...A GM245 without a clutch can be called a 9.5non lock but it's not in the same league as my 9.5nl.

It's not a GM core or sonnex parts, the pics you looked at were of a 700r4 for another customer that he sent me to give me an idea of what to expect and to show the billet back.

Before you call someone a clown you should look at what he has and try one.

You recommended a N/L for me and I really wanted a L/U as I drive my car daily and now I have a L/U that's good into the tens and you said you wouldn't recommend going L/U with the combo I have.

Well I never intend to lock it at the track even though he told me I could. He didn't recommend a steady diet of doing that but said it would hold up to high tens without any problems.


I've seen the PTC unit and I'm not impressed with the way it's built, but hey that's just my opinion and of others that I have been collaborating with.

The PTC that I saw in person had welds that looked like a one eyed monkey welded it with his hood set on grind, but I'm a professional welder so I'm a tough critic on that. I'm also not impressed with the anti balloon plate and the hub among other things with the PTC.

I know you sell PTC converters and I almost bought one. I also know you have skin in the game to defend the PTC for the same reasons. I'm glad I didn't wait for a PTC and gave this guy a shot because he knows his shit and others with TRs are using and testing the limits of his converters right now.

I'm sure they work well for your customers but so does this converter and for less money and in my opinion better quality and features, also for people who would rather keep the L/U he's willing to build it and stand behind it.

I'm sorry if this pisses you off but PTC isn't the only game in town and this guy will build the converter the way you want and guarantee the results.

 

[blackgn1]

I have used Art Carr and PTC. I can't see any converter working better than my 9.5 PTC. My car just keeps getting faster as I tune in a more aggressive tune. This is just my opinion but Dusty and Chris Hogeland have finally harnessed the power my car is making.

 

[threerail]

whats the brand and contact info on these converters, after all, you cant sell a secret, right

 

[kidglok]

Does this converter use a sprag?


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[Dusty Bradford]

I respectfully disagree with you on that.




It's not a GM core or sonnex parts, the pics you looked at were of a 700r4 for another customer that he sent me to give me an idea of what to expect and to show the billet back.

Before you call someone a clown you should look at what he has and try one.

You recommended a N/L for me and I really wanted a L/U as I drive my car daily and now I have a L/U that's good into the tens and you said you wouldn't recommend going L/U with the combo I have.

Well I never intend to lock it at the track even though he told me I could. He didn't recommend a steady diet of doing that but said it would hold up to high tens without any problems.


I've seen the PTC unit and I'm not impressed with the way it's built, but hey that's just my opinion and of others that I have been collaborating with.

The PTC that I saw in person had welds that looked like a one eyed monkey welded it with his hood set on grind, but I'm a professional welder so I'm a tough critic on that. I'm also not impressed with the anti balloon plate and the hub among other things with the PTC.

I know you sell PTC converters and I almost bought one. I also know you have skin in the game to defend the PTC for the same reasons. I'm glad I didn't wait for a PTC and gave this guy a shot because he knows his shit and others with TRs are using and testing the limits of his converters right now.

I'm sure they work well for your customers but so does this converter and for less money and in my opinion better quality and features, also for people who would rather keep the L/U he's willing to build it and stand behind it.

I'm sorry if this pisses you off but PTC isn't the only game in town and this guy will build the converter the way you want and guarantee the results.

You do realize the only difference in the 700 converter you say was pictured is the spline count in the turbine? Majority of the converter pieces are made by only a small select vendors. Converter companies order those pieces and then put them together to achieve a given stall speed. The billet back is just another option available when you order a kit. The vigilante, pro torque, yank and others all use a billet backing plate which is why they are priced at least $150 over my 10". My 9.5 is 950 and is not available in a lock up.

I have customers well into the low 10's with a lock up. I don't advise people to go that route because I know there are better options and I want customers to get the most out of their combinations. I'll sell anyone a lock up but if I feel they can get more out of the non lock, that's what I advise them to do. You were one of those guys. You didn't like my advise so you went another direction which is fine with me. It doesn't hurt my feelings at all. The reason I called him a clown is from all the bs he blew in your direction. Saying he was building our high end converters for us.

 

[robzombie]

I'll sell anyone a lock up but if I feel they can get more out of the non lock, that's what I advise them to do. You were one of those guys. You didn't like my advise so you went another direction which is fine with me.

I drive my car 100 miles a day and feel that a L/U is more suited to me and the way I drive the car. I cruise up and down hills back and forth to work and will only see the track a dozen times a year and won't lock the converter at the track. I would like to try an NL some day just to see if it would be a better option, but I could only afford one right now and felt that was the best way to go. I want to have my cake and eat it so to speak and felt that a L/U could get the job done and when he said he could build one that would hold the power I gave it a shot. You also said there would be a week lead time and I couldn't wait at that point. Now only time will tell if I made the right decision.

The reason I called him a clown is from all the bs he blew in your direction. Saying he was building our high end converters for us.

If I said that I was wrong, he has restalled some PTC high end converters is what I think I said.

I don't know if that's BS but I took the man at his word. It's not like it's a guessing game as it's stamped right on the converter and comes with a sticker on it as well.

I know PTC's work and I'm not disputing that fact. I'm only stating that this converter works as well as a PTC, not better, and is a few hundred less and that's with all the billet parts. I may be wrong but from the ones I've seen [ptc] they need to find better welders or slow down and weld them right. I know that there have been issues in this area recently with some porosity or other reasons why they have been leaking, the two I saw in person had less than desirable welds but weren't leaking.


I only paid 700.00 for my BLU because he wanted me to give him a shot and he also gave me a money back guarantee if not satisfied. It does perform as well as a PTC [atleast the N/L version] as there are ones out there being tested and run by people who had a PTC N/L in their car right before they tried his converter and they are very happy with theirs also. I can't say anything on the L/U front as you haven't sent me a L/U to do a side by side test, hint, hint LOL.

I'm not trying to cause issues here, just stating that there are other options out there, and a good one at that. His customer service is excellent as well and that is getting harder to come by these days.

I would prefer to work with the people on the board, not rile them up, so please don't take offense in my posts as I'm trying to be informative while sharing my experiences and give something back to the community that has helped me so much in the short time I've owned this car.

RZ

 

[threerail]

Let's try this again.....Who is this converter wizard??? Is it iron man? I saw him chuckin chit around in the latest movie that kinda looked like converters before they blew up!!...lol

 

[bison]

I drive my car 100 miles a day and feel that a L/U is more suited to me and the way I drive the car. I cruise up and down hills back and forth to work and will only see the track a dozen times a year and won't lock the converter at the track. I would like to try an NL some day just to see if it would be a better option, but I could only afford one right now and felt that was the best way to go. I want to have my cake and eat it so to speak and felt that a L/U could get the job done and when he said he could build one that would hold the power I gave it a shot. You also said there would be a week lead time and I couldn't wait at that point. Now only time will tell if I made the right decision.

If I said that I was wrong, he has restalled some PTC high end converters is what I think I said.

I don't know if that's BS but I took the man at his word. It's not like it's a guessing game as it's stamped right on the converter and comes with a sticker on it as well.

I know PTC's work and I'm not disputing that fact. I'm only stating that this converter works as well as a PTC, not better, and is a few hundred less and that's with all the billet parts. I may be wrong but from the ones I've seen [ptc] they need to find better welders or slow down and weld them right. I know that there have been issues in this area recently with some porosity or other reasons why they have been leaking, the two I saw in person had less than desirable welds but weren't leaking.

I only paid 700.00 for my BLU because he wanted me to give him a shot and he also gave me a money back guarantee if not satisfied. It does perform as well as a PTC [atleast the N/L version] as there are ones out there being tested and run by people who had a PTC N/L in their car right before they tried his converter and they are very happy with theirs also. I can't say anything on the L/U front as you haven't sent me a L/U to do a side by side test, hint, hint LOL.

I'm not trying to cause issues here, just stating that there are other options out there, and a good one at that. His customer service is excellent as well and that is getting harder to come by these days.

I would prefer to work with the people on the board, not rile them up, so please don't take offense in my posts as I'm trying to be informative while sharing my experiences and give something back to the community that has helped me so much in the short time I've owned this car.

RZ

Post up the data. Surely these guys have some kind of logging ability. Most who run the 9.5" PTC converters already logged a lot and have the time slips to prove performance. Flash stall, and coupling vs other converters tried on the same combo/power. Saying they are as good is really saying they "may" be as good. Until the data proves it it means little. As far as cost is concerned anyone with performance in mind isn't too worried about cost too much. Knowing how well the converters in my car work I'd pay much more than I did if I had too. Keep in mind there are hundreds of the 9.5" PTC converters in Buicks alone. The fastest of the fast run them. If there is something better out there the fastest of the fast will get their hands on it eventually.

 

[Dusty Bradford]

I like to go against the grain and try new territory, especially when this guy says he is the one who does the high end converters for PTC. They all use northstar technology with these converters and set them up for each customer is the only difference as far as I can see.

He will build one the way I want it and guarentee it to ET better than a PTC or my money back if I'm not happy no questions asked.

Also the price is unbeatable

I just need to know what my HP/TQ is to get it right the first time, and since I haven't been on a dyno I was hoping Bison or someone would give me an idea of what the combo in my car should be making.

Here's where you said this guy claimed to build the high end converters for PTC.

I'm simply trying to keep the facts straight. Your obviously confused by the 9.5. Just because it's called a 9.5 doesn't mean its anything like my 9.5. The converter you bought is the same thing you can get from Vigilante, Pro-torque, Yank, etc. You paid $700 for it which is right in line with what a billet lock-up would cost from anyone else. If I saw a benefit of using this billet lock-up kit I would build the same thing. Here's why I don't use it. It's still a single disc design that will not tolerate WOT lock-up for any reasonable time period. So running unlocked it's no different than my 10" which is $500. I see no need to sell a customer a $700 converter that doesn't work any better than a $500 converter. The picture you posted was the standard core used for all the BLU kits and uses a cast aluminum stator..........just like my 10".

Your trying to compare this $700 LU to my $950 NLU which is not accurate. Two different converters. Your converter would need to be compared to my 10". I could call my 10" a 9.5" like Vigilante and others but I tried to eliminate confusion when people get zoned in on a measurement. People get confused when you see 3 different 9.5 converters. One is $350, one is $500, one is $950. Even though they could all be called 9.5's the only thing they have in common is the size. Pump, stator and turbine design are all different.

You posted you had a 2600-2700 stall TCI converter. You made the swap to this new converter to gain stall speed so you'd see 3000 rpm stall at 0 boost an still have 5% slip. Post up your numbers so we can see how it works.

You also posted where it would have 5% slip for any power level you throw at it. If this is what you were told, it simply isn't true.

 

[haywire4130]

This guy went from "humble buick enthusiast trying to help the community" to "outright douche on a mission to bash dusty" in a hurry with the "one-eyed monkey welder" comment- nullifies anything else he had to say... i'm a machinist and welder and after inspecting my new ptc 9.5 I have no doubt the welds are up to the task- especially considering the three 7/16" grade 8 "shear pins" holding it to the flexplate!

 

[Dusty Bradford]

This guy went from "humble buick enthusiast trying to help the community" to "outright douche on a mission to bash dusty" in a hurry with the "one-eyed monkey welder" comment- nullifies anything else he had to say... i'm a machinist and welder and after inspecting my new ptc 9.5 I have no doubt the welds are up to the task- especially considering the three 7/16" grade 8 "shear pins" holding it to the flexplate!

LOL. I really didn't think anything of it. I only TIG weld so if I welded every Buick converter that went out the door I'd be a year behind. The converters halves are MIG welded on a turning table. The steel stators in the 9.5's are TIG welded because a MIG head can't get in the close corners. The stators in my 10" as well a the ther LU converters are all cast aluminum.

Each piece is cleaned in a solvent bath before being welded. We have had an occasional issue with a pin hole, usually it's in the area around the snout of the converter where the anti-ballon plate is welded to the front. As with any welding job, alot of the weld quality is related to the material used when the halves are built before reaching us. We do search for the best we can find but there are issues with a very few.

We turn out 30-40 converters a day on average. Not all Buick.

 

[robzombie]

This guy went from "humble buick enthusiast trying to help the community" to "outright douche on a mission to bash dusty" in a hurry with the "one-eyed monkey welder" comment- nullifies anything else he had to say... i'm a machinist and welder and after inspecting my new ptc 9.5 I have no doubt the welds are up to the task-

Then you're not a very good welder, The welds I saw weren't that great. Will they hold up sure, but they were sloppy and had spatter on the converter. I'm a nuclear welder and may have a higher standard than what you're used to. With welds like that I would be out of a job. You don't need to call me names just because you don't agree with how I describe what I saw. My welds get x-rayed for a reason and have to pass every time otherwise others may die at worst, or contaminate people and structures at best if my welds fail even once. To each his own I guess.

I'm not attacking Dusty or anyone else here on this board, and if it comes across that way to you, to bad for you, I could care less what you think. I am humble and trying to learn from people here and elsewhere. You won't get far attacking people and certainly will lose their respect if that's the way one comes across, and if that's how I came across that is the only thing I will apologize for.

RZ

 

[robzombie]

I'm simply trying to keep the facts straight. Your obviously confused by the 9.5. Just because it's called a 9.5 doesn't mean its anything like my 9.5.

I'm also trying to get the facts, and your converter is nothing like the one I have. The only similarities are that you both get your parts from transmission specialties and that it is a true 9.5, it's just a different core than you use.

The PTC N/L is a better converter for race use then my L/U when you're well into the tens and better no doubt, I'm not disputing that. But this converter is better for those who do more street than track and would lose little at the track compared to the N/L.

Here's why I don't use it. It's still a single disc design that will not tolerate WOT lock-up for any reasonable time period. So running unlocked it's no different than my 10" which is $500.

I can run the L/U with the power levels I have but like I said in earlier posts I won't use it, I will hold it off until I'm over 110 mph if I use it at all when at the track.

I can tell you that for someone who drives on the street and only goes to the track occasionally this converter is a better choice as it has a more aggressive feel and also feels like it has better torque multiplication according to someone who is also testing his converters and they know a lot more than I do.

I'm not running what you saw in those pics, I have a steel stator among other things that are in the PTC, but I have some stuff in there that you don't offer. He has been inside of a 9.5 N/L and admits that you have some good stuff in there but he builds his different than you. Just because it's different doesn't mean it sucks. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

You made the swap to this new converter to gain stall speed so you'd see 3000 rpm stall at 0 boost an still have 5% slip. Post up your numbers so we can see how it works.

I will have a power logger in the car in a few weeks and will post up what the car is doing, not to blast you or to show you up, but to see if what he says is true and then we can go from there.

I will say this, if it performs as well as your 9.5 N/L and for 250.00 less I will consider this converter a homerun for me and that's all I'm really looking for.

I know the 9.5 N/L is a good converter for the track and I've never bashed you or the performance of the 9.5 except the welds that I didn't like, and I believe how the balloon plates are installed.

For people like me that actually drive on the street and only visit the track for fun and don't race every weekend then this converter is better.

You also posted where it would have 5% slip for any power level you throw at it. If this is what you were told, it simply isn't true.

And yet once again I will eat humble pie as when I quoted that I was trying to remember everything that I was told, and I'm sure I said things that were crossed up with all that I was trying to get out as I didn't write everything he said down.

I know I'm not perfect and make mistakes, but I'm trying to learn so much in such a short amount of time and also taking in information from so many different avenues that sometimes I get it wrong.

I would rather collaborate with you and others to make performance better, not get into pissing matches and pass up the next thing that could advance the performance of our cars.

RZ