Anyone else have a street chip setup like mine?

[86brick]

Woody, please tell me what facts you would like to know about his car I know you really think he's got secrets, but I know for a fact that he doesn't. Alex (aka blackshoebox) told me that he was at the Nats and did speak with a good amount of guys about his combo and how he runs 40lbs of boost (like I told you before Red Armstrong knows him real well so give Red a call and strike up a conversation). Next year if everything goes well he should be running his GN in the TSM class at BG, so this would be your best chance to meet the guy and speak with him instead of us third party guys I guess you have trouble understanding that he doesn't have the time or interest of arguing with guys like you who doubt him so much on the internet (some times I wonder why I even bother). Don't take this the wrong way, but please tell me if Orlando tells you everything about his car that we've already told you and you see it run will you believe him or will you want to do a tare down inspection???

 

[BLACK6PACK]

Brick,
Same thing I was going to say. Orlando has no secrets! Ask him and he will tell you strait up what he is running. If you really want to know, give Rick a call. He will tell you what is in the car. Orlando works a lot and doesn't bother with the internet.

 

[86brick]

Thanks for adding to the third party talk Brad!

I really don't understand what "real facts" Woody is trying to find The fact is the car has run 10.0's @130+mph with a stock short block with ported iron heads, a 66mm turbo much like Woody's TE45A (he used to have a TE64 but he now has a TE66), a small flat tappet cam, stock IC with a cool box, a 4000 stall NL Art Carr converter, Red's low timing chip, and keep in mind the car is launched very hard (20lbs of boost launches with the E-brake) which gets him killer 1.40 or better 60's, and as I'm sure you already know it takes a LOT of boost (35-40 psi). This is NOT rocket science to figure out. Is it the "norm"? NO! Is it possible? YES! Brad and Alex see this guy and talk to him all the time and they know for a FACT that he has a stock block and with the car being about 200lbs lighter than his current GN it ran 10.03 @133mph with 36lbs of boost and with the new heavier full weight GN that he has know he thinks the car will run 10.20's @ around 130mph with the same amount of boost and 60' time. Basically this GN is around 3600lbs and the GN that he ran 10.0's with was about 3400lbs. So I ask what more do you need to know??? Like Brad mentioned you can also call Rick Harper and speak with him since you don't want to believe us third party guys! I think his Ph # is on this website www.harpersracing.com

 

[TurboJim]

Originally posted by Berman


Oh, I'd bet any amount of money it's zero. It's a custom chip that the guy who built the car ordered. Timing is at 0 at WOT. I am not mistaken, 0. Besides, how else could you boost 23-25 lbs on the street with 0 knock, no alchy, from a PT52?

I run 20-21 on pump gas tickling the knock sensor at 19*. I think I could run 23-25 at 15* or so....

I think my friend's logic behind this chip was whoop ass on the street, on street tires. Give it timing so it will spool up faster and spin the tires even worse? Especially on the street, on street tires, this setup works for hooking up. This car has laid the smack down on a lot of 11 second cars on the street because they just sit there spinning their tires.

If you just nail it off the line and don't spool it up at all, between the PT52 and stock converter, and 0 degrees timing at WOT, it is sluggish until the turbo spools, and it spools slower than it does with the other chips I have. But it pulls harder, no doubt.

The timing CANT be 0 and I'll tell you why....

The REASON timing gets advanced at a certain RPM isnt so much for power, although thats a byproduct, its because at higher RPM's there is less TIME to be at XYZ* and it takes TIME for the spark to jump the gap, SO, we start the ignition event ahead of shedule so that everything will happen at the point of peak power.

Lets figure it this way, dont look at the numbers, but look at the theory...

Lets say at 800 rpm, the point of power is 4* ATDC (point of power being the point where the explosion in the chamber will generate the most amount of force on the piston which will force the crankshaft around). Lets say at 800rpm the engine will be at that point for 1mS, and it might take 1mS for the spark to jump the gap. So if the timing event is shot at 4* ATDC, the spark might actually occur at 7* ATDC. So, we advance the timing say 7* from that 4* now were firing the mixture when it will generate the most force on the piston.

Now, Fast fwd to 1500-1800rpm (where most centrifugal advance would come in on a dist car). Lets say now theres .5mS worth of TIME at the point of power, and the spark still takes 1mS. Now by the time the plug fires and the charge lights, we may be at 12* ATDC. So, to get back to that point of power we need to start the timing event even earlier. Lets say we advance the timing 12* so that the spark event will coincide with that original 4* ATDC power point.

All else equal, if you set the timing at 0*, the spark/ignition event might not come off until 30* ATDC maybe... LONG after the point of power, and much of the power stroke is WASTED. Now, you may gain it back by using NOS, more boost, whatever because you're making the engine effectivly LARGER by using a power adder, but making that larger engine VERY inefficient!

So, knowing all this, I DOUBT the timing was 0. If it WAS, I'd bet you a buck that the engine could have and WOULD have made more power, with all else being equal, and firing everything off at the right time.

 

[BoostKillsStres]

I would think the likelyhood of burning an exhaust valve with timing retarded that far would also be greater.

 

[azgn]

seems to me, low timing would cause the turbo to spool faster because of the increased exhaust temp?

as for Orlando.....I am impressed he can and does run that much boost and obviously that is the secret.....these cars will make HP with high boost, its just that usually things get destroyed in the process.....my car (with this motor) hasn't been over 24 lbs....that's because I can do the math on HP and don't really want to break anything...lots of us launch at 20 lbs.....me included

I would be interested in whose chip/felpro, timing, cool box, weight, suspension, lots of things...I don't think I would ever be interested in running 40 lbs of boost

 

[86brick]

Woody, I'm not interested in running 40lbs of boost either, however, like I said before there are NO secrets cause like you stated yourself "these cars will make HP with high boost" and 40lbs is obviously high boost! My goals are very simple (nothing like running low 10's with 40 psi like Orlando) for my GN and all I want is a low 11 second car (maybe a high 10 at most)when it's time for the rebuild cause I know that running faster than mid 11's with these cars cost $$$ and isn't easy on parts. I personally what to keep it as simple as possible (no Fel-Pro/DFI or ME chip for me I just want to run Red's chips with the stock ECM) and I know the faster you want to go the more complicated it gets with the tuning aspect and another factor is I like to drive my GN on the street. This means I'd like to stay with as small a turbo as possible (I'm considering the PT52 or TE60) so I can use a 3000-3200 stall converter and I'm going to most likely be getting some 50's or 55's at most cause from what I've heard on this forum any injectors bigger than that usually requires a chip like the ME or a Fel-Pro/DFI system which are more complicated and they cost more also which is understandable cause they are both the best, but for a guy like me who likes to drive the car on the street 90% of the time they are a waste of money IMO. I'll also probably be using GN1 aluminum heads cause I can run less boost (around 20-24lbs) and the car won't need as high a boost level as it would with ported irons. BTW, if you're still interested in hearing more about Orlando's combo like the suspension, the weight, how much timing, cool box, etc. call and speak with Red or better yet Rick cause I'm sure they have more details than I do

Later, Steve

 

[azgn]

I hear ya Steve....lemme offer a little advice if you want to continue to drive your car on a daily basis....set your goal at about 11.5 with as little boost as possible (and things like GN1's will help a lot) and you'll not break anything.......the minute you decide to go faster, buy another car that will get you to work every day........

a 60 or PT-52 and mild converter with some heads is the ticket...mid 11's all day long at less than 25...catch a good air day, or launch a little harder and you'll see some 11.30-20 with the head gaskets intact (not to mention other important parts)


good luck

 

[86brick]

Thanks for the advice Woody!

Yeah, I don't drive my car daily, but I drive it as much as possible and I just can't see myself with anything bigger than a TE60 or PT52 turbo for as much as I drive the car and to tell you the truth mid 11's is plenty fast where I live cause most of the cars that are actually driven to the track and driven home like mine are running mid to low 11's at best (most are still in the 12's). I don't want to worry about the tranny breaking or blowing head gaskets so this to me is the only way to go!

 

[c&cgn]

Originally posted by azgn
I hear ya Steve....lemme offer a little advice if you want to continue to drive your car on a daily basis....set your goal at about 11.5 with as little boost as possible (and things like GN1's will help a lot) and you'll not break anything.......the minute you decide to go faster, buy another car that will get you to work every day........

a 60 or PT-52 and mild converter with some heads is the ticket...mid 11's all day long at less than 25...catch a good air day, or launch a little harder and you'll see some 11.30-20 with the head gaskets intact (not to mention other important parts)


good luck

You hit the #'s right on the head Woody. I ran 11.55 a few weeks ago with my 52 and ripped off an 11.38 the other day with one of our patented "good air" days.

When my motor needs to be re-done I will probably go with a small streetable cam like 206 or 208 and get the heads done. Then I can have fun with the car around 11.5's at less than 25psi and probably pull off a 10 second run if I really want to push it. I am sure I'll keep the PT52 and the same convertor and the streetability should be great.

 

[86brick]

Clayton, those times in your sig are great and for a car as streetable as yours what more could you want! I was thinking about going with a TE-45A turbo or a TE63 with a 3500 9" converter and some 72lb injectors, but then I started to think about how much I actually run the car at the track compared to how much I drive it on the street and I figured I'd be better off with a combo like yours. How many people can say they have a car that runs mid to low 11's and they honestly wouldn't mind driving it every day? The only reason I don't drive mine daily anymore is because I fear it getting stolen and it's bound to happen sooner or later down here if you drive the car daily cause two TRs were stolen a couple of weeks ago in the South Florida area

 

[c&cgn]

Originally posted by 86brick
Clayton, those times in your sig are great and for a car as streetable as yours what more could you want! I was thinking about going with a TE-45A turbo or a TE63 with a 3500 9" converter and some 72lb injectors, but then I started to think about how much I actually run the car at the track compared to how much I drive it on the street and I figured I'd be better off with a combo like yours. How many people can say they have a car that runs mid to low 11's and they honestly wouldn't mind driving it every day? The only reason I don't drive mine daily anymore is because I fear it getting stolen and it's bound to happen sooner or later down here if you drive the car daily cause two TRs were stolen a couple of weeks ago in the South Florida area

I am really happy with the times the car is running. I love the way it drives and handles on the street. I wanted the best of both worlds, fast at the track and on the street but also a reasonable handling car. It will never be a slot car, but it hadles pretty well IMO.

And you are right, I can honestly say that I wouldn't mind driving it everyday, at least when it's not raining in Vancouver

I have no intention of changing anything now until I absolutely have to.

 

[Berman]

I talked to my friend and he swears up and down the timing is set at 0 at WOT on my chip. I said "so let me get this straight, the plug isn't firing until the piston is at top dead center?" and he replys "hell probably a bit after".

Seeing as the car runs great and displays none of the bad characteristics you guys are saying would result from 0 timing..

Maybe my friend is confused about the setup of the chip? The funny thing is I have other chips (pit bull, cotton) that have full timing (have to turn the boost down obviously) and the car runs better with the Harper chip.

I think as soon as payday rolls around I need to buy a scan tool..

 

[ACME RACING]

Zero ±

Probably " 0 " degrees advance above stock timing , 22° ...... Running 1° advance would be 23° timing


alan

 

[TurboDave]

Originally posted by Berman
I talked to my friend and he swears up and down the timing is set at 0 at WOT on my chip. I said "so let me get this straight, the plug isn't firing until the piston is at top dead center?" and he replys "hell probably a bit after".

Seeing as the car runs great and displays none of the bad characteristics you guys are saying would result from 0 timing..

Maybe my friend is confused about the setup of the chip? The funny thing is I have other chips (pit bull, cotton) that have full timing (have to turn the boost down obviously) and the car runs better with the Harper chip.

I think as soon as payday rolls around I need to buy a scan tool..

Ya know, you could put all this to rest just by have a friend hook up a scan tool like Direct Scan or anything else that reads the ignition timing and put this subject to bed once and for all.

Too much BS and conjecture flying around to be of much use to anybody.