Alky tuning with WideBand

[nirto71455]

Hey Guys,

I'm running a D1SC blow through setup on my 71GS 455. I've ran alky (Methonal) on it since bringing it to life. I had a couple of questions in order to help finallize my tune.

Using my LM1, I've tuned my AFR with no alky so it's constanly at 11.7 to 12.0 through out the boost range (boost peaks at 12psi) and the car is intercooled via a large Bar Plate frount mount cooler.

My question is, at what point am I putting too much Meth in the mix? I'm currently running a M15 nossle drilled to .086 with the veins in the head filed in order to help flow more methonal. With that being said, my LM1 with the alky reads 10.8 to 11.3 under WOT with the alky kit spraying. Durning a 1/4 pass I'm using just about 3 pints of Meth per run.

Is spraying that much meth leaning out my mix? Would I be better off mixing some water in the meth and going with a smaller nossle until I can get some bog from the kit? I'm running a SMC progressive kit.

Thanks guys, hope to see you all in Phoniex.

--Rich

 

[DCVING 6]

Sorry I can't help, but WOW, sounds like a neat car! Do you have any pictures of it? website?

dcving6@aol.com

 

[PaCemkr86]

i wanna see pics also.. sounds awesome

 

[nirto71455]

Hey Guys,

some pics of my car are located at

Index of /gs

I don't have any current under the hood pic's.

--Rich

 

[Razor]

Hey Guys,

I'm running a D1SC blow through setup on my 71GS 455. I've ran alky (Methonal) on it since bringing it to life. I had a couple of questions in order to help finallize my tune.

Using my LM1, I've tuned my AFR with no alky so it's constanly at 11.7 to 12.0 through out the boost range (boost peaks at 12psi) and the car is intercooled via a large Bar Plate frount mount cooler.

My question is, at what point am I putting too much Meth in the mix? I'm currently running a M15 nossle drilled to .086 with the veins in the head filed in order to help flow more methonal. With that being said, my LM1 with the alky reads 10.8 to 11.3 under WOT with the alky kit spraying. Durning a 1/4 pass I'm using just about 3 pints of Meth per run.

Is spraying that much meth leaning out my mix? Would I be better off mixing some water in the meth and going with a smaller nossle until I can get some bog from the kit? I'm running a SMC progressive kit.

Thanks guys, hope to see you all in Phoniex.

--Rich

Rich, typically I dont like helping with a competitors product. I think that 48 ounces per pass is excessive. Unless you have a massive leak under pressure.

 

[nirto71455]

Rich, typically I dont like helping with a competitors product. I think that 48 ounces per pass is excessive. Unless you have a massive leak under pressure.

Thanks Razor,

I'm not really looking for help with the product, just looking for opion's / answers on when too much alky could be bad or lead to a lean condition when spraying with pump gas.

At what point do you just back off and not add more Methonal? I know the car is not leaking, I've test sprayed it several times while checking pump PSI and looking for leaks.

In your opinion, would I benifit from adding say 25% water to my methonal?

Thanks,

--Rich

 

[PhilM]

Your AF's are in the ballpark, although they are conservative. Figure out your flowrate with the modified nozzle you have at the initial and full on points to your range (use 'fake' boost ref via. regulator). With this flowrate, you can now calculate an approximate target stoich for your application based off of existing fueling.

You can mix water in the mix if you desire more cooling effect - many of the "roots" style charger folks are using it in this way since they are limited in intercooling ability. With centrifugal-stlye blowers, this is not as pronounced.

Are you still at the same boost/timing as the 'no-alky' tune?

Phil

 

[Razor]

On a blow through setup you already have cooling due to the carb placement. This is one advantage to running a carb. Your alcohol is to be used to offset detonation or any signs there of. Not make up for a fueling problem or distribution issue.

You didnt list HP numbers on the motor or boost being run. So I cant guestimate what nozzles/pressure/flow you should be seeing. I bet after all is said and done your running 2x what you should be.

As to the water, dont waste your time. But arbitrairily dumping in as much alcohol as you can doesnt make power. And can lead to other issues like pre-ignition.

 

[Razor]

Thanks Razor,

I'm not really looking for help with the product, Thanks,

--Rich

See when you buy a product from a vendor, that person should typically be consulted when making tuning and system setup decisions. Just like making changes to a nozzle, there are other ways of going around that. And just like selecting a nozzle. This had to be addressed when you laid the system out the first time.

You paid $$$ for a system. This is why I responded the way I did. Please dont take it the wrong way, in the past other MFG's of these kits have taken offense in me helping their customers.

Nice car, I have always loved the GS

Julio

 

[PhilM]

What promted you to drill out the M15 futher? What makes you think more flow is needed? Normally that is plenty to about at least 4-500HP.

As Razor suggested and not to step on toes give Steve a call; he is a very nice guy, just not too present on this board.

Let's see some engine pix!

Phil

 

[nirto71455]

Thanks Guys,

I'm currently running about 12psi (I thought I mentioned that in my first post). I didn't change timing at all since I'm only running a total of 31 degrees.

Power at the wheels right now is between 570 to 600. The car weighs 4200lbs and is trapping at 125 (that was with 8psi) no times yet with 12psi.

I've drilled the nossle due to Steve's advice and race jace's advice. I think I'm going to scale back on the nossle and remove some boost and doe some track testing in AZ at the WCN in a few weeks.

Thanks for the input and the comments on the car guys.

--Rich

 

[PhilM]

Yea, I think cutting back on the nozzle orifice is def. a solution, but being an electrical kind-o-guy, wouldn't the controller simply be able to do this? I know with mine, I can just cut back on pump speed via a simple turn of a knob. IDK much about Steve's kit though. What was the reasoning they had offered when increasing the nozzle size? It just seems to me that your car is more rich than your name! I personally, would not drill out nozzles... the orifice is sized per the plunger inside so atomization is just right. Drilling it out will put liquid in the engine, I just cannot speak about how well atomization would be over running another nozzle.

Another thing I wanted to point out was regarding your logic in tuning with the alky seems a bit off to me. If you are at the same timing and boost tune as without the alky and it is fine on pump, then why even add the alky? Normally, you use it to escape the limitations of pump gas allowing you to get more power through boost and/or timing.

And besides the rich issue, that thing must roll... we had a 3rd Gen TTA with procharger - 14lbs was LOTS of fun - and that was on a lil ol 5.7L - Nice ride!

 

[nirto71455]

Well,

The car does run well on just pump fuel with the intercooler. The addition of alky is just a added saftey net to to assure I'm doing all I can to prevent a failure.

I miss spoke on how much alky was being sprayed (my grade school math was off) thinking there was 4 pints in a quart I stated three. In all actuallity, It's only using about 1 1/2 pints (under a quart ) per pass.

I realize I can cut some of the preasure from the pump, but I'd rather cut back on nossle and use all the pump presure to insure I'm getting the best mist out of the nossel as possible.

 

[Razor]

Myself and Phil are still puzzled why the nozzle got drilled. If you need more flow, why not just add another nozzle T'd into the main line. And why the decision made to drill it out.

1 ounce per second should be plenty on your setup. The term safe is a weird term.. as your racing an engine on a blow through carb. And the associted distribution issues found with single plane intakes with boost.

Guess life is all about decisions.:redface:

 

[spins4]

The only way to know if you are spraying 'enough' alky for the current settings is to check for knock. Best way is to read the plugs. Its no secret the more alky you spray IF PROPERLY TUNED, the more power you can make. There's a reason why full Methanol cars will make more power than their Gasoline counterparts, but you run into practical limitations in the alky injection paradigm-- relying on 1 or 2 nozzles to distribute the methanol equally to all of your cylinders as you add more spray, pump pressure going down as you 'jet up' further adding to previous problem, tuning that amount of methanol, etc, etc.

So its best to shoot the least amount of methanol you need for a given tune up, plus a little padding for saftey, and call it a day. The number which works for me at high boost, and detonation free is 30% Methanol/70% pump gas (not a Buick). Razor's stuff comes out of the box ready to go for most Buick apps thanks to his R&D, so its a no brainer for that platform. Your car/platform/setup being different, you need to read the engine to do this, plug readings is what I find work best for me. You may find you only need 10% meth/90% gas to quell the detionation, you may find it takes 40/60...creep up on the tune carefully, and watch all your instruments and spark plugs to get the requirements. Electronics can lie, knock sensors can report false knock, but the plugs are sitting in the motor and they never lie!

 

[nirto71455]

The only way to know if you are spraying 'enough' alky for the current settings is to check for knock. Best way is to read the plugs. Its no secret the more alky you spray IF PROPERLY TUNED, the more power you can make. There's a reason why full Methanol cars will make more power than their Gasoline counterparts, but you run into practical limitations in the alky injection paradigm-- relying on 1 or 2 nozzles to distribute the methanol equally to all of your cylinders as you add more spray, pump pressure going down as you 'jet up' further adding to previous problem, tuning that amount of methanol, etc, etc.

So its best to shoot the least amount of methanol you need for a given tune up, plus a little padding for saftey, and call it a day. The number which works for me at high boost, and detonation free is 30% Methanol/70% pump gas (not a Buick). Razor's stuff comes out of the box ready to go for most Buick apps thanks to his R&D, so its a no brainer for that platform. Your car/platform/setup being different, you need to read the engine to do this, plug readings is what I find work best for me. You may find you only need 10% meth/90% gas to quell the detionation, you may find it takes 40/60...creep up on the tune carefully, and watch all your instruments and spark plugs to get the requirements. Electronics can lie, knock sensors can report false knock, but the plugs are sitting in the motor and they never lie!

Thanks Spins4. Thats more of the responce I was looking for. I do read my plugs, and keep an eye on the tune. The alky was just to add a little cushion and gain some inexpinsive power.

 

[nirto71455]

Myself and Phil are still puzzled why the nozzle got drilled. If you need more flow, why not just add another nozzle T'd into the main line. And why the decision made to drill it out.

I didn't think about adding another nossle..

How much will you sell me an assortment of nossles for?

--Rich

 

[PhilM]

I have nozzles... they are cheap... if you want a few nozzles I can send you a few at what I pay for em or I can give you the PNs from McMaster Carr. You also need the associated "t-ing" hardware? I have that stuff as well, but it will be all -AN fittings, which are more $$$ than an entirely brass NPT setup. I wouldn't mind building you up a nice T for that car. Only petpeeve I have is that I do not have HW to install nozzles OTHER than welding in a bung - to me that is the best solution and don't fiddle with other mounts. I have Al bungs though if you know a local TIG'er.

But a first approach would be if Steve has an upgrade for this already... like I said before, I do not know anything about his kit, so it would probably be best that he supply the parts that hook right up to it. I just don't know why he wouldn't just add another nozzle before telling you to drill it out. Usually, we check with the customer on the appx HP they are shooting for, add about 20% to that and then tailor nozzles to that, whether it be single or dual. Granted, drilling out the nozzle is going to flow more and you can surely use it, but then you need to recalculate flow and ensure that it is still atomizing properly.

The reason I/we use a dual setup is that at a certain point large orifice nozzles do not atomize as well. One big hole has more trouble misting than two small ones with the same pump.

Let me know, and good luck!

Phil

 

[nirto71455]

Hey Phill,

What would a nice looking T setup cost me, and how would you space the nossels on the pipe? I'd prefer a bung setup as well. I can Tig so I'd actually prefer that anyway. I'm thinking two M10's or Two M15's may be just what the DR ordered.

 

[PhilM]

I'll throw a setup together tonight... What are the incoming connections to your existing nozzle? Also, what does this kit do RE: a check valve on the main alky line? Maybe send me a quickie drawing of the existing pipe threads/fittings for the system as it is - would be much easier to work out something for you. email: spoolinup@gmail.com

Phil