6765 billet vs TE45A vs 70 P Trim - stall recommendations?

[Blazer406]

See title.....

I have:
TE45A (66mm) - P Trim - 3"/2"
70 P Trim (70mm) with the H housing (4"/3")

Looking at keeping maybe the 70 P Trim... as my backup.....and purchasing a new Billet 6765 Jornal Bearing with the H housing.... then I will sell the 45A....

Question is.... what stall would each require? ... and how would they compare?

I was thinking the 6765 journal bearing turbo would require maybe slightly less than the 45A or 70 p trim......

Am I in the ball-park?

I have a "0-pump" 5-disk vigilante.... which is supposed to be like 3200-3400 or so..... but I've seen 3800-4000 from my stock turbo before a 6-8 psi launch.... so I feel like mine is a real loose "0-pump".

 

[bison]

They all require a very similar stall. Id go with 3000-3200@zero boost/vacuum

 

[gs462]

I think hes asking about the turbo? I also have a 45a and am interested to see how these stack up.

 

[Blazer406]

I think hes asking about the turbo? I also have a 45a and am interested to see how these stack up.

Both to an extent...... turbo differences.... as well as what stall is optimal.....

I think my "0-pump" ought to be OK..... especially when I lock it about 95 mph.......

 

[TURBO 6]

I say sell the 70ptrim. When switching from the 6765 to your spare 70 p trim you're going to want to vomit waiting for it to spool. Keep the 45a for a spare if you can. The 6765 should spool like mad compared to the 70.

 

[Blazer406]

I say sell the 70ptrim. When switching from the 6765 to your spare 70 p trim you're going to want to vomit waiting for it to spool. Keep the 45a for a spare if you can. The 6765 should spool like mad compared to the 70.

Question.....you mention major spoolup differences between the 70 and 45A...... I have reasoned the P trim 70 would need nearly the same stall as a 45A.... because the turbine wheel was the exact same size.....therefore....in my logic.....should sppol similarly....no?

Anyway.....all this talk has got me wanting to sell one and replace it with a journal bearing billet 67......just don't want to make a decision too quickly....and regret it later.....

H-Housing for the 67..... is it worth it?

I'm running a RJC FMIC...wiich has the 3" piping.....so a 3" outlet compressor cover would mate nicely......

 

[bison]

Question.....you mention major spoolup differences between the 70 and 45A...... I have reasoned the P trim 70 would need nearly the same stall as a 45A.... because the turbine wheel was the exact same size.....therefore....in my logic.....should sppol similarly....no?

Anyway.....all this talk has got me wanting to sell one and replace it with a journal bearing billet 67......just don't want to make a decision too quickly....and regret it later.....

H-Housing for the 67..... is it worth it?

I'm running a RJC FMIC...wiich has the 3" piping.....so a 3" outlet compressor cover would mate nicely......

Blazer you are correct about the spoolup with the 76 trim journal turbos. All very similar. Even the 63 comp is very similar to the 70. A tuner with an aftermarket ecu like XFI could get a 70 P to spool as fast or faster than a chipped car with a 63 P if the tuner knew what he was doing. The 6765 reportedly (though not verifed with data by me or any logs ive seen) needs a couple hundred more stall to spool. One thing that has been proven is that the back pressure with the 65 trim is much less than the 76 trim. If your spraying in a lot of alky then the comp wheel wont matter. If you want to have a solid 130+mph car at 26-27psi then any of them will get it done. Id spend the $ on a PTC converter before i replaced a TE45a with a 6765 though. The cam you have in your sig is a very fast ramp grind and will need 160lbs on the seat to work effectively at 6k+ rpm. I have a slower ramp 218-224 cam in mine and was contemplating going with an almost identical to your grind cam and was assured today by Bob at RPE it was a no go without a good enough set of springs. Im thinking about throwing on the dual springs and giving it a go. Slight gain in efficiency with the H but the alky will offset it if you use a smaller cover.

 

[Blazer406]

Blazer you are correct about the spoolup with the 76 trim journal turbos. All very similar. Even the 63 comp is very similar to the 70. A tuner with an aftermarket ecu like XFI could get a 70 P to spool as fast or faster than a chipped car with a 63 P if the tuner knew what he was doing. The 6765 reportedly (though not verifed with data by me or any logs ive seen) needs a couple hundred more stall to spool. One thing that has been proven is that the back pressure with the 65 trim is much less than the 76 trim. If your spraying in a lot of alky then the comp wheel wont matter. If you want to have a solid 130+mph car at 26-27psi then any of them will get it done. Id spend the $ on a PTC converter before i replaced a TE45a with a 6765 though. The cam you have in your sig is a very fast ramp grind and will need 160lbs on the seat to work effectively at 6k+ rpm. I have a slower ramp 218-224 cam in mine and was contemplating going with an almost identical to your grind cam and was assured today by Bob at RPE it was a no go without a good enough set of springs. Im thinking about throwing on the dual springs and giving it a go. Slight gain in efficiency with the H but the alky will offset it if you use a smaller cover.

Thanks Bison...... I really want a PTC converter.... 9-1/2" N/L.....I know there is IMHO no better all-out converter than that, but I have the 5 disk vigilante..... and my car is going to be primarily driven on the street.....therfore I chose (4 years ago) the heaviest duty lockup I could find......wanting to retain lockup for my street/highway driving....and being able to lock it at the strip. If my car was primarily strip, a PTC N/L 9-1/2" would definately be what I would run. I have helped tune an 11.0 car with a vigilante..... these converters are way loose and inefficient IMHO when unlocked.....but when locked...they are the bee's knees......


With that said....maybe I need to just sit tight......and see what I have now......

My goal is sub 10.50's on pump gas and alky.....trapping 130 or so.....boost in the mid 20's...timing in the low 20's in high gear....If I run out of injector....or see any knock....will go to dual nozzle on the alky....and pour the alky to it...and let the wideband 02 correction do it's thing....

Oh.....I'm running beehive springs.....should be low 140's on the seat at my installed height..... so I might not make it to 6000 before power falls off.......we will see I guess.......and you are right.....the ramps on my cam are way fast....my initial goal when I chose that grind was to shift between 5500 and 6000.....we will see if it makes it that high.

Again...thanks for your input....and everyone elses too.

 

[bison]

Thanks Bison...... I really want a PTC converter.... 9-1/2" N/L.....I know there is IMHO no better all-out converter than that, but I have the 5 disk vigilante..... and my car is going to be primarily driven on the street.....therfore I chose (4 years ago) the heaviest duty lockup I could find......wanting to retain lockup for my street/highway driving....and being able to lock it at the strip. If my car was primarily strip, a PTC N/L 9-1/2" would definately be what I would run. I have helped tune an 11.0 car with a vigilante..... these converters are way loose and inefficient IMHO when unlocked.....but when locked...they are the bee's knees......


With that said....maybe I need to just sit tight......and see what I have now......

My goal is sub 10.50's on pump gas and alky.....trapping 130 or so.....boost in the mid 20's...timing in the low 20's in high gear....If I run out of injector....or see any knock....will go to dual nozzle on the alky....and pour the alky to it...and let the wideband 02 correction do it's thing....

Oh.....I'm running beehive springs.....should be low 140's on the seat at my installed height..... so I might not make it to 6000 before power falls off.......we will see I guess.......and you are right.....the ramps on my cam are way fast....my initial goal when I chose that grind was to shift between 5500 and 6000.....we will see if it makes it that high.

Again...thanks for your input....and everyone elses too.

IMO the vig will give up too much in 1st and 2nd being unlocked. No doubt the LU will keep the rpm's down in 3rd though. If you want to pull 6k+ id take RPE's word for it. You may want to go back to a 1.55 rocker if you run out of steam at 5700-5800. It will slow the vlave opening down some. Also id shim the heck out of the springs you have on there till your about .030 from coil bind at the full advertised lift. That will help i some. RPE advised that the springs you and i have really lose a lot of tension after they get some time on them. Im contemplating throwing a set of doubles on there that are 160-170 at the installed height and throwing in the fast ramp cam

 

[TURBO 6]

Why don't you sell both and get the DBB Billet 6765? Then you'll be set.

 

[NCTURBOS]

Im contemplating throwing a set of doubles on there that are 160-170 at the installed height and throwing in the fast ramp cam

3/8" pushrods and solid lifters?


K.

 

[BobbyBuick]

i ran a 45 a 3-2 and swithed to a p trim 70 4-3.I got to say for me not the same at all.It was a lot tougher to spool quickly at the line on a pro tree.Not so differant that the convertor was not correct but I needed it to spool instantly to 15 psi.when i changed turbos you could burn me down at the line cause i had to get in first and get started spooling to be ready and with the 45 it was instant

 

[bison]

off topic

3/8" pushrods and solid lifters?


K.

If i went solid id use more like 190 on the seat. Pushrods dont seem to matte as long as they are chrome moly. At least under 7k rpm. Problem is this is a stock block. Not worth throwing all this in one imo

 

[Blazer406]

i ran a 45 a 3-2 and swithed to a p trim 70 4-3.I got to say for me not the same at all.It was a lot tougher to spool quickly at the line on a pro tree.Not so differant that the convertor was not correct but I needed it to spool instantly to 15 psi.when i changed turbos you could burn me down at the line cause i had to get in first and get started spooling to be ready and with the 45 it was instant

Are you sure there weren't other variables in play? ...... like wastegate puck sealing issues.....assuming they were different exhaust housings?

Maybe I am overthinking this.....but the same turbine wheel....same exhaust housing......ought to spin-up similar..... maybe the compressor wheel mass (weight) is significantly higher on the 70? .... vs the 66 of the 45A?

I'm not suggesting you didn't experience slower spoolup....but if so why.... were there other "reasons" for the slower spoolup...... I can't imagine a significant difference due to the larger compressor housing......

Sorry for rambling.....just the engineer coming out in me.....

 

[bison]

Are you sure there weren't other variables in play? ...... like wastegate puck sealing issues.....assuming they were different exhaust housings?

Maybe I am overthinking this.....but the same turbine wheel....same exhaust housing......ought to spin-up similar..... maybe the compressor wheel mass (weight) is significantly higher on the 70? .... vs the 66 of the 45A?

I'm not suggesting you didn't experience slower spoolup....but if so why.... were there other "reasons" for the slower spoolup...... I can't imagine a significant difference due to the larger compressor housing......

Sorry for rambling.....just the engineer coming out in me.....

The 66 wheel has a very large exducer and is nearly the same weight as a 70 wheel. If there are no data logs its hard to see what is really going on. The bigger comp housing will slow spool a little