200-4R Converter Locked at Idle

[HotSpark]

Trying to figure out why my 200-4r decided to start locking up and stalling the motor when I put it in gear.
So far I've switched out the TCC Solenoid and 4th Gear Pressure Switch. Unhooked the 12v+ signal to the Transmission and no change. Prior to removing from car I pulled the pan so I could make sure the TV cable adjustment was correct.

Trans pressure read over 100 when I first started it up and would drop down to about 75 once warm at idle.
Pressure increased instantly with throttle increase with TV cable hooked up and unhooked so I thought the TV valve might be stuck.

I went ahead and pulled the trans out and verified the Apply Valve inside the Front Pump was free, also the TV valve in the valve body moves freely.

The .555 boost valve has some blow-by when I hold the valve in place and blow through the hole in the boost sleeve using lung pressure. Not sure if this is normal or if it should be sealed with such little pressure.

I went ahead and split the pump. There are some grooves for sure in the housing and the rotor as can be seen in the pics. Although the Lockup valve didn't stick while pushing it in and letting it slide out under spring pressure, there is some sludge in the bottom of that port and some wear showing on the edges of the valve.

 

[pacecarta]

did you have the converter checked out ?

 

[HotSpark]

did you have the converter checked out ?

I have not. I went ahead and ordered a new converter from PTC but it will be a few weeks before delivery.
I don't have the original paper work to know who's converter this is that I have so not sure who to send it to but would be nice to know what was inside and if it was messed up or not.
I purchased this Transmission / Torque converter combo from a local guy advertised as a < 2yr old CK Performance Pro Street transmission. We went for a test ride before pulling it out and everything was great. Installed it in my car and everything was great the first time out. The next day when I went to back out of the shop is when it first started acting up and died when I put it in reverse (Idle is set at 800, when I first lifted the tires and applied brake pressure it would bog the motor down to 450 just before it was ready to die I let off the brakes). Let it warm up and lifted the tires off the ground and let them spin in reverse and Drive for a couple minutes. Set it back down and seemed ok. Went around the block came back and parked it. That is when I swapped out the Solenoid/pressure switch with new thinking that was the issue but no luck.

CK Performance doesn't have any record of this transmission so since I don't have paperwork to support that I can't make that claim.. I'm just trying to isolate the issue while I wait for the replacement torque converter. Here are some pics of the Torque Converter.

 

[needforspeed150]

Lockup solenoid/ TCC solenoid is probably bad. Easy to replace.

 

[mikestertwo]

Lockup solenoid/ TCC solenoid is probably bad. Easy to replace.

The transmission is designed to make it not possible to lock the converter in low gear regardless of the condition of the lockup solenoid. This is a safety feature built into the transmission. There is another issue. Either a large cross leak somewhere or a bad torque converter.

 

[needforspeed150]

The transmission is designed to make it not possible to lock the converter in low gear regardless of the condition of the lockup solenoid. This is a safety feature built into the transmission. There is another issue. Either a large cross leak somewhere or a bad torque converter.

Although you may be right. I am going on past experience with our GM delivery cars that have had the solenoid go bad and they stall the car out at a intersection. You can start the car but when it goes back in drive it kills it again. 3 vehicles and all the same issue.

 

[HotSpark]

Lockup solenoid/ TCC solenoid is probably bad. Easy to replace.

I was hoping that was it also since it was easy to get to but no luck.

 

[TexasT]

I'd pull that rotor, vanes and such out and look at the cavity. That cover looks pretty chewed up and I would bet the cavity doesn't look any better so that answers the pressure question.
So, when you unplug the four conductor side connector it still locks up? If so something is wrong in there. Has it ever worked in your vehicle? Someone might have changed the pins in the other car. Might need to look at what is happening with that before spending on parts.

 

[bison]

That rotor and pump half looks terrible. There's probably a cross leak in the housing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[achalmersman]

Although you may be right. I am going on past experience with our GM delivery cars that have had the solenoid go bad and they stall the car out at a intersection. You can start the car but when it goes back in drive it kills it again. 3 vehicles and all the same issue.

He is right. In the 2004r the tcc is not hydraulically available in 1st unless there is somekind of internal cross leak or something as bison stated

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[HotSpark]

I appreciate the feedback all of you have provided!

The TCC electric circuit has been modified and the solenoid connects to a 4th gear pressure switch that provides the ground connection when it gets pressure and the hot side is connected to a switched 12v+ source. I tried leaving it unhooked and swapping that solenoid to see if I could keep it from locking but based on what you are saying something with the hydraulic passages must be messed up or the torque converter clutch itself since it was for sure locked in 1st and reverse.

I have a Torque Converter on Order and will be shopping for a complete pump. If you know a good source PM me.

 

[INEEDAGN]

My money is on the converter not being fully inserted into the trans. Taking out the back half of the pump and binding up the rest.

And as everyone else has stated, the oil that applies the converter clutch comes from 2nd gear. Solenoid and all associated wiring is completely out of the question in park no matter who wired it or even if it has a checkball plugging the end of the solenoid, there's no oil available to apply the clutch until 2nd gear unless there's a cross leak

 

[INEEDAGN]

Converter has witness marks from having washers installed between it and the flywheel. How much clearance was between the flywheel and the converter with converter fully in the trans? Something is fishy with that pump wear.

 

[HotSpark]

Makes sense. The previous owner used this setup with his LS based motor and I agree it looks like he for sure had spacers based on the diameter of the wear marks shown on the torque converter.
I had to take the Torque converter to a machine shop and have the snout of the torque converter machined down .300" before I could use it behind my sbc 400 crank.

No spacers were needed with my application, I only had about .18" gap of play between the Torque Converter and flexplate once the bell housing bolts were tightened.

I'm in the market for a good pump now.

 

[INEEDAGN]

So maybe the snout wasn't machined properly to allow the converter to have fore/aft play.


So when the bell housing was bolted up but the converter bolts weren't, did it have fore/aft play with a prybar or screwdriver and did the converter slide all the way up and touch the flex plate pads without having to be bolted? If you are unsure, take the converter under the car and hold it in place and see if the modified hub actually lets the bolt pads touch the flex plate bolt surface. Also check you crank thrust, SOMETHING pushed the rotor into the back half of the pump and did that damage and may very well have ate the thrust surface of your crank.

 

[HotSpark]

When I first tried to install the Transmission / converter in the car, I failed to hold the converter against the flexplate to make sure the snout would fit in the crank. So of course when I tried to get everything lined up the bell housing wouldn't sit flush and the torque converter was quite aways from the flexplate with no wiggle room to move closer.

That is when I started worrying that the torque converter wasn't going to work with my crank. I did some calling and found out it was normal to just machine down an LS based snout .3" and everything would be ok. I had a local machine shop do the work and the next test fit was successful, I could hold the converter up flush against the flex plate

With the bell housing bolts torqued, I was able to just fit .18 worth of feeler gauges between the pads and the flexplate and able to freely spin the converter with my hands. I was also able to push and pull the converter flush against the pads, no prying needed.

Here are pics I just took of the crank and the the converter snout. I don't see anything that looks out of place

If you look at the last picture, that wear on the top of the keys that slide in the torque converter grooves shouldn't be there. So I agree based on those marks it looks like at some point the converter was installed and ran without being slid in the grooves and instead pushing against the pump causing the damage.

 

[INEEDAGN]

Do you mean .180 worth of feeler gauges or .018? How much crank thrust play do you have? Put an indicator on the crank flange and gently pry it fore and aft

 

[HotSpark]

Do you mean .180 worth of feeler gauges or .018? How much crank thrust play do you have? Put an indicator on the crank flange and gently pry it fore and aft

I just double checked my gauge set and it was for sure .180" gap. Does that seem too loose? I didn't check the crank thrust but will do it tomm. I loaned my cam degree kit to a friend and that is where my only dial indicator is.

 

[77 cruiser]

That would be 3/16 that's good.

 

[INEEDAGN]

.180 is good. You mentioned feeler gauges which led me to wonder if it was a typo.

regardless of WTF happened and when, if you have the converter freshened/spec'd for your application and put a quality built pump in (from someone who knows what they're doing), and check the crank thrust and flush or replace the trans cooler, it probably won't happen again. check the input shaft and seals while its apart too.