"109" Stock Block Class Racing - What's the Point Anymore?

[Kip]

On the other hand I have been in the Buick world 20 years and love these cars and I hate to see these classes fade away and TSM is doing just that. How many TSM cars were at the other points races this year besides the 10 that showed up at BG? We used to have a lot of cars in TSM at all the races even the smallest races were as good as BG this year and we had nearly three times as many at BG 04/05.

Dave, just wondering how many was the highest car count you ever remember for TSM at BG?


All classes could could use more car count at the smaller races. The usual turn out for TSO was 2 cars for the races I went to beside BG. The MWBC even dropped the class because of low turn out in the past.

See ya, Kip

 

[southern boost]

Hey Dave not tryin to get anyone mad ,but if you have a 234 in a stage you can run harder then the 109 because of your more reliable block and heads bolts would you remove 6 head bolts ?

Also Dave your stand up guy always been top notch everytime I see you ,but some wouldn't be they would try and get all they could out stage motor .The car count has suffer a couple ways don't make it bout the block, economy ,guys movin on and some guys that are just got more important thing in live then racin.

Myself have not made race of north because of money and fuel prices .I worry bout how long before my days of racin are over because of money ,but that live .

Finnally I hope no one hold ill feelin toward me just statin my opinions on this topic .

 

[RYAN GRAVES]

I really dont have a say so in the matter, never racing in TSM, but this is still an open air forum. My thoughts are and not that it matters. The cost of buiding a competative TSM car is not cheap (first hand). And your finished product is just that a TSM car. It is too heavy to race alot of classes, which having the v6 gets alot of weight breaks in alot of classes. And your limited in the horsepower deptartment to be competative. And lets be honest traveling to race your car at these specific only races, can really drive up costs. I see know real solution to the topic, it is... what it is. My decisions after my split block made me decide to go a different direction, based on my above observations. Sure it would have been way cheaper to rebuild and race TSM, but like alot of you.. heads up racing is my preferance and it just made more sense.

 

[V6RACER]

I've been very reluctant to post on this topic but I have been keeping up with the posts.

I will say there are really valid points for both sides of the argument. I like index racing, I like heads up racing, I like class racing.


I'll keep this response around TSM only:

IF Stage blocks were allowed:

-Who would actually attend/participate in the TSM class and point series?
-How many of the "stage" engines are actually out there that have TSM turbo?
-What weight penalty be put on stage block? Cars are too heavy now.
-How does this affect current TSM participants that have iron heads/small cubic inch?

Let's say that the rules are opened up to allow stage blocks. How many would we really gain in participation? How many would we lose?
IMO, it would be a wash. If we gained 5 new TSM Stage players, we'd lose about the same.

IF, big if, there are 10 or so more stage block 71 turbo cars out there that would actually make the events maybe we should look at opening it up.

What we need are less events that allow budget minded racers to focus on fewer trips/races and would in turn increase participation.






Also, while on the subject cubic inches, filled blocks, extra bolts, street cars, etc., I'll answer a few questions about my setup.
My car is under legal cubic inches, no hard block in cylinders, no extra head bolts, hydraulic camshaft, no exotic parts like titanium, uranium, or unattainable etc. Most people that have seen my car up close knows it's not "top of the line" by any measure.

I drive my car around town with my sons, drive to car shows 20+ miles away, drive to the local track to make test passes, dirve 25 mile stop and go cruises in 95+ degree weather to compete in our local heads up classes and usually win. I really don't consider my setup to be all out drag only. If I can't drive it around I wouldn't be interested in it as much. The stock 109 block will take the abuse of many passes and street driving if it's tuned and maintained properly.

I ran 9.17, 9.11, 8.96, 9.01, 9.05, and 9.10 at BG and drove it on the trailer. I will change the plugs and head out to two more races before the end of the year to test a 67 turbo on my setup. I ran all this year and only inspected the engine before BG and everything went right back together. Didn't replace anything, just replaced gaskets.


You know why I'm not having the problems everyone else says will happen with a 109?


I've taken my time to tune and test and creep up on this setup. It doesn't happen over night. Many people have thrown a lot more money at this and end up with catastrophic results as seen in other posts. You can't throw parts at something and turn it WFO on the first pass..

Food for thought.

How about a list of Stage Block with 71 turbo owners?

 

[RYAN GRAVES]

I reallly dont think car count will increase with the allowing of stage2 blocks. People just get frustrated when the bar gets raised and the hopes of taking a win in the class seems unattainable. You should be commended for taking a progressive approach on your combination and deserve to be holding the number one spot. My progress was slow and patience is a must when trying to set realistic goals, it takes time. Parts break its part of racing.

 

[Bent6]

Everyone's got valid points from all sides of the discussion. No hard feelings here. It's good to put it all on the table in an effort to improve things.

Thing is SOMETHING rather than NOTHING needs to be done rather than just staying the current course.




Dave - mild is not in my vocabulary when it comes to building cars but all you have to do is give me the word on the LS stuff and I'd be glad to steer you in the right direction.

My junk has always been an outcast when it comes to class racing so it's all the same to me! :biggrin:

 

[KevinB]

Jason, I would race it. You know I am good for attending 3-4 races a year for the last 5 seasons. It would take me a year at least to piece it together. Put me down for 2013

 

[Sydwyndr]

Jason, What about iron headed cars 3200 OR 67mm turbo cars to the same weight regardless of block (if they could be taken down that far), Aluminum headed 109's to 3350 (+150), and ANY headed stage or TA block to 3550 (+200)?? Rules already state 3550. The loss of weight on the 109's "should" make them a bit more reliable assuming they are pushed to the same boost levels they currently see, whatever that number might be...

Probably should post up in another thread.

 

[sackracing]

Everyone's got valid points from all sides of the discussion. No hard feelings here. It's good to put it all on the table in an effort to improve things.

Thing is SOMETHING rather than NOTHING needs to be done rather than just staying the current course.




Dave - mild is not in my vocabulary when it comes to building cars but all you have to do is give me the word on the LS stuff and I'd be glad to steer you in the right direction.

My junk has always been an outcast when it comes to class racing so it's all the same to me! :biggrin:

If you ever want to swap out that 9 inch for a 10 bolt, I've got dibs...

 

[V6RACER]

Jason, What about iron headed cars 3200 OR 67mm turbo cars to the same weight regardless of block (if they could be taken down that far), Aluminum headed 109's to 3350 (+150), and ANY headed stage or TA block to 3550 (+200)?? Rules already state 3550. The loss of weight on the 109's "should" make them a bit more reliable assuming they are pushed to the same boost levels they currently see, whatever that number might be...

Probably should post up in another thread.

Clint, I don't see anyone getting down to 3200 in TSM with iron heads with current rules. 3300 with irons/67 would be as low as I would imagine you could go unless you had some exotic parts.

In theory, you'd have to be able to add 200-250 to stage blocks and that would put them up around 3750-3800. Who wants to drag that much weight down the track??


3300 base weight
3300 - 67/irons/109
+100 - 71/irons/109
+150 - 67/AL/109
+250 - 71/AL/109
+400 - 67/Stage
+450 - 71/Stage

 

[KevinB]

What about just taking the 67 brake out since I don't think anyone used it this year that I know.

Make 3300 with 70 iron
3400 alum
3550 s2

 

[Bent6]

Jason, What about iron headed cars 3200 OR 67mm turbo cars to the same weight regardless of block (if they could be taken down that far), Aluminum headed 109's to 3350 (+150), and ANY headed stage or TA block to 3550 (+200)?? Rules already state 3550. The loss of weight on the 109's "should" make them a bit more reliable assuming they are pushed to the same boost levels they currently see, whatever that number might be...

Probably should post up in another thread.

I"ve thought of the same thing - letting the 109s drop some weight. What about giving the Stage blocked cars a 67mm turbo limitation - maybe even with a weight penalty as well?


Jason's weight proposals look good too but you don't need to go over 3600# regardless IMO.

 

[Sydwyndr]

What about just taking the 67 brake out since I don't think anyone used it this year that I know.

Make 3300 with 70 iron
3400 alum
3550 s2

Or make all stage / TA's 3600 lbs. Like +150 for each occurance
3300 for iron
3450 for aluminum (3300 for 67 turbo)
3600 for 14 bolt blocks up to and including the current 71 turbo

Cars are too heavy as the current rules are written. IF the stage cars want to play, make them run all the rules up to and including the most current, just make them pull the weight. Rules could be adjusted as needed to make for a competitive field

 

[antiquettype]

Hate to complicate things, but are there any T4 turbos that could be considered so you wouldn't have to swap out the passenger side header to run TSM with a car that is set up for TSL or TSO?

 

[Mike E]

I would run as many races as my work schedule allows, definetely BG, tb.com and the Georgia races. But, I don't see my car being done until 2013.

I was planning to take my stuff to the machine shop next week to get pistons and a cam on order. If there is a good probability that stage blocks are going to be allowed, I'll hold off until my stage parts sell. I do have a .060 over 109 ready to go either way.

 

[sackracing]

I just bought a 67, planning on taking the weight break.

 

[V6RACER]

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/tsm-rules-regulations/363835-tsm-outlaw.html#post2900097

 

[sackracing]

Jason, I'd like to hear how your testing with the 67 goes.

 

[HighPSI]

Cal would know more about it, but I think they combine them to increase car count. I heard they ran TSL at bg on Friday and ran a combo class on Saturday with everyone getting a payout.

Bowling Green and Reynolds worked out well running TSL early, then allowing them to also run TSO. I'm pretty sure tb.com event will be run the same way. In fact, I expect a couple of TSL cars to run pretty well at the tb.com event. The 1/8th mile track takes some of the TSO advantage away.

 

[Sydwyndr]

Bowling Green and Reynolds worked out well running TSL early, then allowing them to also run TSO. I'm pretty sure tb.com event will be run the same way. In fact, I expect a couple of TSL cars to run pretty well at the tb.com event. The 1/8th mile track takes some of the TSO advantage away.

Yes. TSL will run on Friday to allow TSL cars to enter TSO on Saturday. Win/Win situation