Goodbye to Pontiac
- Thread starter Mike Licht
- Start date
88 CuttyClassic
The Enviromental Hitman
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2001
no i mean first at the finish by GTOs getting their asses waxed on the streets back in 68-72 by the mopars and Stage 1's. Many kids came back from Nam and bought GTOs and many kids got smoked in their GTOs by the less popular but faster GS. b-body 440 powered mopars were tough to beat. same thing happened in the 80's. everyone bought 5.Slows and F-bodys and got destroyed on the streets by the less popular but faster turbo buicks. buick did it to everyone two times!
Pronto
Believe nothing you hear and half of what you see.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2002
I can see the G8 becoming the new Impala. I don't see why they don't go after the police cruiser market with that platform. RWD, full sized and fast. I like the idea of the Solstice becoming a new Reatta, that would work. The rest of the Pontiacs can go away and not be missed. The best of the Pontiacs are long gone. Hummers and Saabs will not be missed. GM has missed the boat since the '70s. After years of making junk and 5 duplicates they finally started making better more unique cars but it was too little too late.
Dennis Kirban
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
kirban 2 cents worth
Case in point.....not sure of your age, however, I served i n Vietnam 1966-67....
The GTO came out in 1964.... likeI stated earlier every car line you can mention has had their moment in the sun...meaning have been the king of the hill leader of the pack winner on the street. Its a fact.....its like who had the fastest gun in the west someone always comes a long who is quicker...
I am not disputing that.....only stating that Pontiac was first out of the box with the big engine in a small body....what happened in 1968 is not the point I was making....actually in those later years all the cars got heavier....then the government and insurance stepped in and that era ended....whether you were part of it back then or not....point is enough variety existed back then to make EVERY one happy.
I have been on all sides of the fence having 1967 hemi gtx, several cudas aar style and even a few olds.... each car maker scored....even had a R3 dual quad supercharged lark studebaker sedan....an 1969 and 1970 road runners....heck our company was the very first company to make the 15 by 7 mopar wheels for year one....I am not just loyal to one car maker....
Granted the GS Buicks were quick but Pontiac produced way way more GTOs each year back then then Buick did GSs....
Actually the early Olds Cutlass 1978-79 shares the same basic console and shifter that is in the Turbo Regals....my point is, I am not here to argue which car crosses the finish line first.
Enjoy the ride.......
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
I bought a 1964 GTO used rite out of Vietnam.........
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
Dennis Kirban
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
kirban 2 cents worth
Man I should have known that heck I own a mint 97 riviera.....I posted without thinking it through thinking of the regal model gs I think only made half way through 1996 as I had a 1994 GS model....
Riv is a super nice car not the fastest out of the gate I own but a nice machine.....
Your answer proves I don't know it all all the time..
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
Owned a few Buicks over the years.....actually quite a few......
I agree, a very sad chapter in American automotive history. I grew up in the Pontiac, Michigan area listening to the old timer's stories of the hay days and the excitement that was the automotive business during those times. A good friend of the family worked at the GM proving grounds and got me a jacket that has 'Pontiac Test Team' along with the 'GM Proving Grounds' on it; wondering if that will be worth anything one day (probably don't fit anymore either). This inspired me to get into my current occupation as an automotive engineer going on 20 years now, to bad I was 20 or so years too late already.
A '65 GTO was my first car back in 1985. Pontiac's may not have been the fastest but to me they represented the raw American automotive attitude. Just look into the history of bringing this car to market and the men involved. That was the attitude that made the American auto great. To me it's hard to beat the looks of those early GTO's, rolling works of art. Besides, I don't care what kind of GM car you like, it came down to it being an American automobile which is unique. If not, we'd all be driving and discussing some foreign make on this site. Same thing applies to the Fords, Chryslers, and all the past; lots of beautiful American metal. The turbo Regals were a throw back to that attitude with modern concepts. Unfortunately, it only lasted a short time.
IMO, the demise of the Pontiac brand represents what is happening in this country. Losing our identity and becoming a one size fits all nation. I know GM and the others have made some big mistakes and tried to live off their old achievements (top to bottom). That being said, the government and special interests definitely have a hand in this. Those types view us as the silly, uneducated masses who haven't seen the light yet. Cars represent individuality and that equates to freedom; something the government don't have an interest in any longer, especially Obama, Pelosi, etc. Check out the areas they are from and laws, enough said. They would be all too happy for us to conform and start driving those 'washer and dryer' type cars. (liked that comparison Dennis). Don't even get me started on all this 'green' stuff. Just another way for the chicken littles to collect taxes and make money.
OK, I need to stop.
Long live Pontiac and every other American automobile......
A '65 GTO was my first car back in 1985. Pontiac's may not have been the fastest but to me they represented the raw American automotive attitude. Just look into the history of bringing this car to market and the men involved. That was the attitude that made the American auto great. To me it's hard to beat the looks of those early GTO's, rolling works of art. Besides, I don't care what kind of GM car you like, it came down to it being an American automobile which is unique. If not, we'd all be driving and discussing some foreign make on this site. Same thing applies to the Fords, Chryslers, and all the past; lots of beautiful American metal. The turbo Regals were a throw back to that attitude with modern concepts. Unfortunately, it only lasted a short time.
IMO, the demise of the Pontiac brand represents what is happening in this country. Losing our identity and becoming a one size fits all nation. I know GM and the others have made some big mistakes and tried to live off their old achievements (top to bottom). That being said, the government and special interests definitely have a hand in this. Those types view us as the silly, uneducated masses who haven't seen the light yet. Cars represent individuality and that equates to freedom; something the government don't have an interest in any longer, especially Obama, Pelosi, etc. Check out the areas they are from and laws, enough said. They would be all too happy for us to conform and start driving those 'washer and dryer' type cars. (liked that comparison Dennis). Don't even get me started on all this 'green' stuff. Just another way for the chicken littles to collect taxes and make money.
OK, I need to stop.
Long live Pontiac and every other American automobile......
Dennis Kirban
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2009
kirban 2 cents worth
good post.....lots of Pontiac history in your neck of the woods. One of the most famous ads for Pontiac/GTO was the 1968 shown on Woodward Avenue....back then ads could not reflect anything associated with racing so that ad was quite subtle.....
kirbanperformance.com
denniskirban@yahoo.com
One of my current license tags still reads MR GTO have had it for almost 25 years now....
88 CuttyClassic
The Enviromental Hitman
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2001
what does production numbers have to do with anything.... probably my biggest aversion to GTO is because i see them way to much. living in PA all i see is fox bodys, 60/80/90s camaros, novas, chevelles and GTOs...
the olds shifter is the same all the way up through the 88 cutlass classic.
its not like a hate pontiacs because i dont its just that no one shed a tear for Oldsmobile after everything olds did for the automotive world...everytime you wax ur chrome remember olds was doing it first, everytime your 200r4s shift remember olds has automatics first...everytime ur hear ur turbo whine remember olds did it first...those running alky, olds did it from the factory...if you wreck ur car and onstar calls you, oldsmobile had it first... HUD...OLDS had it first. GM is stale for many reasons but olds was the innovative brand and they AXED it for crap saturns.. As an olds guy i always looked at buicks and their owners like a brother.. i just dont have that chevy/pontiac mindset.
LEGACY_GN
Active Member
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
Someone needs to make a bumper sticker that says
"Drive foreign? The unemployed Thank You!"
My father has only owned one non pontiac in his life and that's the 87 Buick Grand National I bought from the guy he sold it too. Still has his first car a 59 Bonneville along with a 69 Red Judge, 98 Grand Prix GTP pace car, 99 Trans Am ws6 and 05 Bonnieville GXP. Really sad for people that have been so loyal all these years.
I myself drive an 07 Escalade ESV that was built right here in Texas. (the ext is built in Mexico).
Check the doorjam before you buy. Even some of the Honda and Toyota cars are built here. Keep American jobs.
"Drive foreign? The unemployed Thank You!"
My father has only owned one non pontiac in his life and that's the 87 Buick Grand National I bought from the guy he sold it too. Still has his first car a 59 Bonneville along with a 69 Red Judge, 98 Grand Prix GTP pace car, 99 Trans Am ws6 and 05 Bonnieville GXP. Really sad for people that have been so loyal all these years.
I myself drive an 07 Escalade ESV that was built right here in Texas. (the ext is built in Mexico).
Check the doorjam before you buy. Even some of the Honda and Toyota cars are built here. Keep American jobs.
88 CuttyClassic
The Enviromental Hitman
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2001
no one entitiy is to blame. the auto workers screw themselves, the auto execs run it into the ground, the US GOV is scared to piss off the foreigners by placing tarrifs on imports and the american public shows no loyalty and forgot the brave soldiers that got snuck by that spineless nation at pearl harbor.
LEGACY_GN
Active Member
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2007
let's be honest
Great article that doesn't make it sound like pontiac has been dead for years.
As Pontiac lovers lament, an Ode to My Bonnie
Monday was a sad day for Pontiac lovers. For the critics who have already stormed other articles and blogs regarding the brand's watered-down persona - platform sharing with Chevrolet, the Australian GTO, body cladding, the Aztek, among others - consider what Pontiac used to stand for: performance and high value.
As the former driver of a 1993 Bonneville SSE that pushed 230,000 miles, I can attest to Pontiac's mission statement, even though that car was also based on the Oldsmobile Eighty Eight and the Buick LeSabre. Yet while the chassis, front-quarter window glass, and the woefully inefficient 3.8 liter V-6 (only making 170 horsepower) tied the car to the GM family, the Bonneville was a true corporate outsider. Nearly a decade before the high-priced European cars offered such useful features as heads-up displays, power seat bolsters, radio controls on the steering wheel, an auto-dimming rearview mirror - and the early form of in-car navigation, the electronic compass - the Bonneville SSE had all of that.
Dual air bags, anti-lock brakes, and traction control were all included before many mainstream cars offered them. Everything you could touch was power-operated, the seats moved about two-dozen ways, climate control was automatic, there were air vents for the back seat (with adjustable louvers for the floor and face), and the stereo's subwoofer was the only sound more satisfying than the low, throaty growl from the dual exhaust pipes.
My father bought it in 1997 with 47,000 miles for $15,500 - a good price for a well-kept, top-end model that commanded around $27,000 four years earlier. The car's only pitfall as he drove it off the lot was the gagging stench of cigarettes, which took several weeks worth of Glade fresheners to clear. The only options it didn't have was the supercharged engine (a boost to 225 horsepower), a CD player, and electronically adjustable dampers. All of this with tank-like construction, firmly weighted steering, and a dashboard devoid of hard plastics and the flat, senior-citizen style design that had dominated all other large GM cars for eons.
The green Bonnie was the first car I learned to drive. It was the car that started my newspaper career as a college intern, when as it aged and the air conditioning failed, I hustled it in the summer heat around Meriden, Conn., writing stories for the daily Record-Journal. It's odd to describe love between a human being and a slab of metal, but mine was plain to see. The Bonneville was always there for me, and it's fair that I wouldn't be writing on Boston.com and working for The Boston Globe had it not shuttled me to nearly 40 assignments over two summers.
At 200,000 miles, the Bonneville was creeping into old age. The ride turned into an inflatable children's funhouse on the highway. A mysterious fuel line problem made the car stall around turns and hills when the tank was a quarter-full (and boy, was it fun to muscle the Bonneville around a highway exit ramp with no engine or power assists). The cabin had become a cloth tent as the roof liner began to peel, some of the radio buttons quit their jobs, the security chip on the key sometimes locked the ignition, and a failing alternator stranded my family in a snowstorm. Or am I thinking of the fuel problem during another summer?
The Bonneville, however, was easy to forgive. The car's vitals - engine, transmission, steering, brakes - worked without flaw. I wasn't old enough to drive the car during its prime, but its back seat was the only place where I could catch sleep on long road trips. Its nameplate stretched back to 1957, an intangible alternate universe to most 20-year-olds. But I knew it was a legacy few other cars in the world could claim.
It could be argued that the Firebird - another legacy dating to 1967 - was the start of Pontiac's sad end when it was discontinued after 2002. But the loss of the Bonneville after the 2005 model year was the loudest death knell. When a brand's flagship goes under, what else is really left? Could Mercedes still be Mercedes without the S-Class, a long-timer that introduced much of the company's technology, including the industry's first iteration of stability control? Or Porsche without the 911, Chevrolet without the Corvette? Granted, these are cars in stratospheric price points next to a Bonneville, but the idea is the same.
There are big books that have been and will continue to be written on GM's failure to invest in Pontiac, the reliance on SUVs, the idea that sticking different badges on the exact same car and assuming buyers wouldn't notice. The list goes on. But perhaps the biggest reason is a lack of pride. A disinterest in identity and history, a nonchalant business stance at Pontiac that was more concerned with selling to rental fleets than dedicated customers.
Pontiac had a world-class car in the 1990s. The engineers, marketers, and product developers should be infuriated at what became of it.
"My Bonnie lies over the ocean
My Bonnie lies over the sea
My Bonnie lies over the ocean
Oh bring back my Bonnie to me"
- An old Scottish song
Great article that doesn't make it sound like pontiac has been dead for years.
As Pontiac lovers lament, an Ode to My Bonnie
Monday was a sad day for Pontiac lovers. For the critics who have already stormed other articles and blogs regarding the brand's watered-down persona - platform sharing with Chevrolet, the Australian GTO, body cladding, the Aztek, among others - consider what Pontiac used to stand for: performance and high value.
As the former driver of a 1993 Bonneville SSE that pushed 230,000 miles, I can attest to Pontiac's mission statement, even though that car was also based on the Oldsmobile Eighty Eight and the Buick LeSabre. Yet while the chassis, front-quarter window glass, and the woefully inefficient 3.8 liter V-6 (only making 170 horsepower) tied the car to the GM family, the Bonneville was a true corporate outsider. Nearly a decade before the high-priced European cars offered such useful features as heads-up displays, power seat bolsters, radio controls on the steering wheel, an auto-dimming rearview mirror - and the early form of in-car navigation, the electronic compass - the Bonneville SSE had all of that.
Dual air bags, anti-lock brakes, and traction control were all included before many mainstream cars offered them. Everything you could touch was power-operated, the seats moved about two-dozen ways, climate control was automatic, there were air vents for the back seat (with adjustable louvers for the floor and face), and the stereo's subwoofer was the only sound more satisfying than the low, throaty growl from the dual exhaust pipes.
My father bought it in 1997 with 47,000 miles for $15,500 - a good price for a well-kept, top-end model that commanded around $27,000 four years earlier. The car's only pitfall as he drove it off the lot was the gagging stench of cigarettes, which took several weeks worth of Glade fresheners to clear. The only options it didn't have was the supercharged engine (a boost to 225 horsepower), a CD player, and electronically adjustable dampers. All of this with tank-like construction, firmly weighted steering, and a dashboard devoid of hard plastics and the flat, senior-citizen style design that had dominated all other large GM cars for eons.
The green Bonnie was the first car I learned to drive. It was the car that started my newspaper career as a college intern, when as it aged and the air conditioning failed, I hustled it in the summer heat around Meriden, Conn., writing stories for the daily Record-Journal. It's odd to describe love between a human being and a slab of metal, but mine was plain to see. The Bonneville was always there for me, and it's fair that I wouldn't be writing on Boston.com and working for The Boston Globe had it not shuttled me to nearly 40 assignments over two summers.
At 200,000 miles, the Bonneville was creeping into old age. The ride turned into an inflatable children's funhouse on the highway. A mysterious fuel line problem made the car stall around turns and hills when the tank was a quarter-full (and boy, was it fun to muscle the Bonneville around a highway exit ramp with no engine or power assists). The cabin had become a cloth tent as the roof liner began to peel, some of the radio buttons quit their jobs, the security chip on the key sometimes locked the ignition, and a failing alternator stranded my family in a snowstorm. Or am I thinking of the fuel problem during another summer?
The Bonneville, however, was easy to forgive. The car's vitals - engine, transmission, steering, brakes - worked without flaw. I wasn't old enough to drive the car during its prime, but its back seat was the only place where I could catch sleep on long road trips. Its nameplate stretched back to 1957, an intangible alternate universe to most 20-year-olds. But I knew it was a legacy few other cars in the world could claim.
It could be argued that the Firebird - another legacy dating to 1967 - was the start of Pontiac's sad end when it was discontinued after 2002. But the loss of the Bonneville after the 2005 model year was the loudest death knell. When a brand's flagship goes under, what else is really left? Could Mercedes still be Mercedes without the S-Class, a long-timer that introduced much of the company's technology, including the industry's first iteration of stability control? Or Porsche without the 911, Chevrolet without the Corvette? Granted, these are cars in stratospheric price points next to a Bonneville, but the idea is the same.
There are big books that have been and will continue to be written on GM's failure to invest in Pontiac, the reliance on SUVs, the idea that sticking different badges on the exact same car and assuming buyers wouldn't notice. The list goes on. But perhaps the biggest reason is a lack of pride. A disinterest in identity and history, a nonchalant business stance at Pontiac that was more concerned with selling to rental fleets than dedicated customers.
Pontiac had a world-class car in the 1990s. The engineers, marketers, and product developers should be infuriated at what became of it.
"My Bonnie lies over the ocean
My Bonnie lies over the sea
My Bonnie lies over the ocean
Oh bring back my Bonnie to me"
- An old Scottish song
QuickBuick87
Active Member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2006
And that's why the US automakers are in the shape there in now. I'm getting sick and tired of people justifying there purchase of a Honda(or whatever) by knocking American automakers as junk. I've owned GM cars for almost my intire life and have had nothing but good luck with them. Even a few Fords...
. As for Pontiac, my girlfriend(now my wife) wanted a muscle car back in the mid 80's and she ended up buying a 65 GTO. Man what a fun car, and I won't even get into all those memeries!! What a HUGE mistake the government, oppps I mean GM is making!!!! Ken
QuickBuick87
Active Member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2006
GREAT IDEA!!! Course that's just about everyone out there.........:frown:
In 64 and 65 the GTO was the most sought after cars you could buy. It also was a very quick stock street car. The other makes played catch up once Pontiac came out with the GTO and yes by 1968 they were faster cars from the factory. In 64 and 65 the GTO was at the top, for a Factory car.
I owned 65 in 1965 and with single carb I remember outrunning friends in their 63.5 427 sideoiler Galaxy and the 390 Fairlane. Remember this was a family car not a 2 seater like the vette and cobra. I also had a 65 FI vette and a 62 260cube Cobra and they were no quicker then the early GTO. I saw 427 63 z11 cars and stage Mopars with aluminum front ends that may have been a little quicker in the early 60s but they were special order cars. People like Royal Pontiac were showing everyone how to do a "super tune" on the Goat and those cars were in the mid 12s
Pontiac started the whole Muscle car race so give them credit.
I owned 65 in 1965 and with single carb I remember outrunning friends in their 63.5 427 sideoiler Galaxy and the 390 Fairlane. Remember this was a family car not a 2 seater like the vette and cobra. I also had a 65 FI vette and a 62 260cube Cobra and they were no quicker then the early GTO. I saw 427 63 z11 cars and stage Mopars with aluminum front ends that may have been a little quicker in the early 60s but they were special order cars. People like Royal Pontiac were showing everyone how to do a "super tune" on the Goat and those cars were in the mid 12s
Pontiac started the whole Muscle car race so give them credit.
As for Buick in the 60s they were an also ran. the Buick line didn't get much attention at all and the 442 was an OK car but not in the same league as the GTO. The later GS models were very quick but still were an afterthought. The only time you realised they were quick is when you read about it in the magazines. The kids weren't buying them IMO. I dont remember seeing a Buick GS at the street races and we raced 4 to 5 days a week on the street.
