Why didn't Stage 2 heads become the norm ?

[jjvites]

I was wondering why the Stage 2 heads lost out to the aftermarket heads? It doesn't seem that there was a shortage of them, as they were sold by GM for quite a while. Early on there were header manufacturers for them as well as aftermarket cams that could be bought. Was it class rules in racing that didn't allow them but allowed the M&A's and Champion's aluminum's because they were based on production type of head earlier on? What do you think?

Marty

 

[John Wilde]

I was wondering why the Stage 2 heads lost out to the aftermarket heads? It doesn't seem that there was a shortage of them, as they were sold by GM for quite a while. Early on there were header manufacturers for them as well as aftermarket cams that could be bought. Was it class rules in racing that didn't allow them but allowed the M&A's and Champion's aluminum's because they were based on production type of head earlier on? What do you think?

Marty

People were still in the stock computer, double pumper, only stock location inercoolers and my 206 cam is huge days. The game has evolved and left some of the people in the dust. In addition, you would have to start over from scratch from the cam up on the combination. It was cheaper to go with the stage 1 type heads if you had started the racing of the car already.
If you are building a purpose built race motor from scratch the stage 2 heads are the best choice. Where else will you get a head that will flow 340-350CFM, have a 12* valve angle and not have problems under extreem racing conditions?

 

[jjvites]

Hey there John,
That's true for the regular guys, but there were a lot of big hitters in the Buick game at one time and they spent the money as they are now. So which classes at the nationals allow the use of the Stage 2 heads? Were some of the vendors maybe pushing for certain rules, I don't know but just wondering.
By the way how streetable are the Stage 2 heads, can you drive around town on a limited bases or to the track within 50 miles or so?

Marty

PS saw your buddy Chris on Pinks, that was a big save on the second round.

 

[John Wilde]

Hey there John,
That's true for the regular guys, but there were a lot of big hitters in the Buick game at one time and they spent the money as they are now. So which classes at the nationals allow the use of the Stage 2 heads? Were some of the vendors maybe pushing for certain rules, I don't know but just wondering.
By the way how streetable are the Stage 2 heads, can you drive around town on a limited bases or to the track within 50 miles or so?

Marty

PS saw your buddy Chris on Pinks, that was a big save on the second round.

I think that you are right, first there was M&A then Champion and now TA.
I am not sure the Buick is throwing any money into the race classes so they could make them legal for more classes. You can you them in TSO and the Quick 16 and thats it.
Tony Gomes would be a good example on a TSO Car.

Mac in SD drices his Stage 2 headed car all the time.
He runs a mild cam and it seems to work really well for him.

 

[jjvites]

So of the TSO and Quick 16, how many do you think are Stage 2 vs GN1R and TA? The GN1R's are being modified with bigger and bigger ports, raised port runners, larger and spaced valves, so soon they will flow close to a Stage head. Are the Stage heads just to big a port for turbo application at the current engine size and horsepower levels?

Marty

 

[John Wilde]

So of the TSO and Quick 16, how many do you think are Stage 2 vs GN1R and TA? The GN1R's are being modified with bigger and bigger ports, raised port runners, larger and spaced valves, so soon they will flow close to a Stage head. Are the Stage heads just to big a port for turbo application at the current engine size and horsepower levels?

Marty

Marty,

Get me a list of who it running and I will try and break it down for you.
When I spoke to Duttweiler about this a million years ago he said that the M&A and Champion Heads were good to about 1150-1200HP. After that point the Stage 2 Heads start to really shine. Not only will they make more power, but they hold up aittle better at the higher hp levels. I know that there have been advancements in the stock type heads in the last couple year's, but they are still in different league.

 

[Tim Barnum]

Hey there John,
That's true for the regular guys, but there were a lot of big hitters in the Buick game at one time and they spent the money as they are now. So which classes at the nationals allow the use of the Stage 2 heads? Were some of the vendors maybe pushing for certain rules, I don't know but just wondering.
By the way how streetable are the Stage 2 heads, can you drive around town on a limited bases or to the track within 50 miles or so?

Marty

PS saw your buddy Chris on Pinks, that was a big save on the second round.

I drive mine around all of the time. No problem here. I have a 230 solid roller cam.

 

[jjvites]

Marty,

Get me a list of who it running and I will try and break it down for you.
When I spoke to Duttweiler about this a million years ago he said that the M&A and Champion Heads were good to about 1150-1200HP. After that point the Stage 2 Heads start to really shine. Not only will they make more power, but they hold up aittle better at the higher hp levels. I know that there have been advancements in the stock type heads in the last couple year's, but they are still in different league.

Thanks John, just thinking out loud. I gather that you really like the Stage heads and that's cool. I gather you have had a bit of experience with them.

Tim,
Thanks for that info, it's good to know that they work with a 230 cam on the street.

Guys,
Is there a "sweet spot" as far as cam selection for these heads? In other words is there a minimum duration that you need for decent fill time because I would think that with those huge ports the velocity is down compared to smaller port on production style heads.

 

[John Wilde]

Thanks John, just thinking out loud. I gather that you really like the Stage heads and that's cool. I gather you have had a bit of experience with them.

Tim,
Thanks for that info, it's good to know that they work with a 230 cam on the street.

Guys,
Is there a "sweet spot" as far as cam selection for these heads? In other words is there a minimum duration that you need for decent fill time because I would think that with those huge ports the velocity is down compared to smaller port on production style heads.

Mac in SD has a really small cam in his stage 2 headed motor.
I have actually run a bigger one in my old M&A Headed 109 Motor.
I am hoping that he will chime in.
If not I am pretty sure Neal Steward knows the combination.

 

[chevyII]

Thats the cam (230/230) Dan at DLS spec mine to need. I wanted something mild down low and will be running a 42/76 or two 61's with around a 3500 stall. For a street strip cam for a 274" a 230 or 238 is what was recommended. I think a 248 is still a reasonable cam but I might be wrong?

 

[chevyII]

Oh that was for stage heads also.

 

[Mac in SD]

Mac in SD has a really small cam in his stage 2 headed motor.
I have actually run a bigger one in my old M&A Headed 109 Motor.
I am hoping that he will chime in.
If not I am pretty sure Neal Steward knows the combination.

John, I don't know what happened. I typed up a post a couple of days ago, and I guess I didn't "submit reply."

Anyways, I run ASA, big port S2 heads with 2.125 intake, 1.650 exhaust valves. Big-port, Chapman-ported heads. 9:1 CR. My cam is a 222/218 hydraulic roller, and I for sure could have gone bigger and still had plenty of bottom end. As it is, I'm thinking I need to go from a .69 A/R turbine housing to an .81 or .96 to cool off the bottom end torque - it comes on too quick for street tires. Soooo... I think "velocity" is not a problem. And no cracks.

Think about it: an ASA 9:1 motor made about 450 HP with a 4V carb. Throw some boost at that. I only had my car on the track once since I put the S2 in (time and $ shortage.) With poor gas I could only run about 13 lbs of boost, and the car turned 11.22 @ 122 on worn out MT Streets. And it's very streetable - I drive it to work for kicks once a week or so. And, btw, I passed smog with unbelieveable flying colors. Really no downsides.

HTH.

 

[jjvites]

Thanks Chevy II, good to hear your view. Mac that sounds really good that with a smallish cam like that and big heads you can drive it and make big power. I don't see any down side to Stage 2 heads after the initial cost of parts.

Marty

 

[1dmbth]

I have a 224/230 cam I am going to run in mine. I plan on driving mine on the street some.