What next ?

[Buick From Hell]

You got spark--and you say you got gas...my question, is where are you getting gas? Do you know for sure that the injectors are squirting fuel?

Have you tried starting fluid? Shoot some starting fluid thru the MAF...If the timing is correct, it'll fire!

If STILL no fire, then I'd guess your cam sensor has been set using the wrong cylinder, resulting in a spark so far out of time that it won't fire anything!

 

[HOTSIX]

BFH - I wasnt real positive the injectors were working so I did the thing on #1 cyl with the test light and paperclip in the inj plug - but I got no blinking when I cranked it. I did pull #1 plug and it looked wet to me...but not REAL wet - for the amount I had cranked it. Proceeded to #1's neighbour, injector #3.

Injector #3 didnt blink either - but again was a wet plug - but not REAL wet. Could be my testing wasnt accurate with the injectors (plus I broke the wires off #5 - hello? Casper's ?), but I got 120 PSI with compression test and I did pull and fire a plug outta cyl - got strong spark - so something must be amiss and I figured it was the injectors.

IRace AV6 - I got strong spark so I guess my crank shaft interrupter wheel is okay then ? I don't have the Casper's cam tool so a voltmeter and I have become good friends. I played with the timing a bit too...trying it a 15 deg. and even 0 deg. - still nothing.

Gotta install the new injector harness then start at it again. Pretty close to taking it to a garage. I'm still hoping it's ECM.....maybe it is ?

 

[Buick From Hell]

If you got a good spark, I'd say it's NOT the ECM, and the cam & crank sensors are just fine...However, as for the injectors, if the test-light isn't showing power, I'm thinking that's where your problem lies! TRY SOME STARTING FLUID! It should at least fire up for a sec, and give you some hope!

Before tearing into much more, test the injector power output AT the ECM! (I'm at work now, but at home I have a chart that I can put a link to that shows which connections on the ECM plug are for the injectors, I can put it up tonight unless someone can do it sooner!)

If you're getting power out of the ECM, but not at the injectors, then it's likely the harness is messed up, or you have a simple ground problem...

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

see i have special lights for jesting injector pulse but a testlight should pick it up im going out and check mine with a test light like i explained but im pretty sure that works ..

if you just broke the bottom of that plug on one side it should still hold on pretty good i have a few on mine that are getting rough but they stay on with no problem, so if you cant easily pull it off then you will be able to get away with it.

 

[HOTSIX]

BFH - Thanks...I'd appreciate that chart. I dunno what's going on here. The EMC to injector connection goes right from the ECM to the Inj plugin right ? So if I got power there (at ECM) then I guess I just gotta check the rest of the harness to find the fault ! PITA !

REDS - Let me know if your test light worked on the injectors...might not be a strong enough current ....? It didnt work for me but maybe someone else has tried it and it worked ???
I broke the wires right outta the plugin...or else I would have salvaged it and fixed the mess....ordered a new one today from Caspers (next day UPS air).

The saga continues

 

[cool 84]

Your inj/FP fuse is ok, right? Are you using a test light or plugging a small light bulb into the injector harnesses?One side of the plug should always have positive with the key on and the computer triggers the injectors by sending a ground. You should be able to smell the fuel on the plugs.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

i had told him to use a test light to test injector pulse by sticking one end on a terminal in the plug and use like a paper clip in the other for the clip end of the test light..

i just got back home and my motors alil hot now but once it cools alil i will make sure it works that way.

 

[Buick From Hell]

THE ECM PLUG!

Here's a link to it, it's on my website so you may want to bookmark it!
ECM plug

And here's an attachment, just in case!

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

ok HOTSIX hears the deal i went out there and pulled all my plug wires off so my car would not start and plugged the test light in like i described and after the first rotation the test light started flashing not the brightest flash in the world but a flash indeed

you should try it again (not in the sunlight) and let the motor spin a few times because they wont start getting signal till the cam sensor gets around to tell them which stroke they are on ..

if you dont get a signal then you need to check out that cam sensor

test it after the plug by shoving that paper clip in down in the back of the plug beside the middle wire till it gets in contact with the terminal on the wire ,clip a volt meter on the clip and if you have voltage rotate the motor by hand clock wise and see if you get the voltage dropoff if you do back the motor back up just a little and see if the voltage comes back up to make sure you just didnt loose contact

at the point voltage drops you should see the timing mark on the balancer about an inch to the right of the timming tab.
(not exactly an inch but in general)

let us know what you come up with.... ...........RED

 

[Buick From Hell]

Reds, I don't want to sound arguementative, but if he's getting spark, the cam sensor is fine! (But where it's set is anyone's guess, timing could be way off!)

 

[Buick From Hell]

I'm just wondering if his injector harness plugs are dirty/broke/otherwise bad? It don't take much dirt or grease to screw up one of those plugs.

As for the cam sensor/timing, that's why I've been suggesting a shot of ether...he HAS spark, and if the timing is right, it'll fire! If it don't, then the cam sensor is probably off a mile...on a total rebuild by someone else, the cam sensor drive may have just been stuck back in the engine with no regard to it's correct position! For example, if it thinks #5 is #1, the sparkplugs will all fire with the pistons nearly at the bottom of the cylinders, AND with valves open!

The plugs being wet is still puzzling with a no-light test. Another thing to try is the stethescope test, to see if you can HEAR the injectors clicking...

 

[cool 84]

We can just end this whole fuel thing by spraying starting fluid into the filter and see if it tries to start. If it does the car isn't getting fuel. If it doesn't I'd look at cam timing.

 

[HOTSIX]

Thanks boys....

BFH - That ECM harness wiring diagram really helps ! I will check for power to the injectors using that. I am still thinking ECM here guys...if I had spark (which I do) but no injector pulse what would be the diagnosis...? Cam timing or ECM fault...?

I got a new inj harness comming from Caspers. My pal suggested that my (slightly only) wet plugs could also possibly be partly from the inj leaking fuel down a lil when the pressure gets up. What you guys think ?

REDS - I was testing the injectors with #1 inj plug pulled off. You are saying do it with the plug on right ? Just probe the wire from the backside while plugged into the injector ?

I think I am doing the timing correctly....correct me if I am wrong here...my plastic timing tab only goes up to 20 deg. then it stops. Does everyone else's ?

I measure a 1.45" long piece of tape - stick it to the balancer on the left side of the timing mark while 0 mark is at 0 TDC. The tape (at its most extreme left point) shows a spot just slightly past my 20 deg mark. So I rotate the engine 0 timing mark to that point (rotating counter clockwise) then set the cam sensor at 0 volts (from 7.5 volts) by rotating it counter clockwise while probing the "B" or centre wire.

I guess I could also put the tape on the right side and rotate the engine counter clockwise so the end of the tape is at zero as well (but it's the same spot both ways)....Is that right ? Cause thats how I have the timing set.......

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

hey you should be rotating it clockwise..
if you put the tape to the left of the slot in the balancer then the very left end of the tape should be at zero and the slot on the balancer will be to the right of the plastic timing tab..

and you were right test with plug off the injector but i think you will fire once you set your cam sensor right..

 

[Buick From Hell]

GM CAM SENSOR SETTING info (click here)

 

[HOTSIX]

Dumbest guy in the room - again...

O my god. If that's all thats holding me up...I broke the stupid injector harness for nothing.
All that hassle....geez.

I thought "ATDC" meant Advance Top Dead Centre. When I start the engine it rolls over clockwise - so I figured the timing mark had to be to the left end of the timing tab ! At 25 deg in Advance of Top Dead Centre. Guess not huh.

The instructions in the GM service manual (as usual) are not very specific (or not for dummies) so it appears I set the cam timing incorrectly. I will wait for my injector harness to come and then set the cam sensor properly.

So the tape goes on the left side of the mark on the balancer and then rotate the balancer clockwise till the left edge of the tape is at zero.

Got it.

I'll report back.

 

[REDS HOT AIR]

yep i think ya got it..

BTW check your pm's once in a while...

 

[HOTSIX]

Still screwed.....

I tried the new Inj harness - nothing.
Again - got lots of spark - compression (120 PSI) and fuel seems ok - what gives ?
I have looked at the plugs again and they were wet - but - didnt smell real strong like gas !
I have real old gas in the car now...so this prob wont help matters.

I did the power test at the ECM - and I got zero at the IGN - ECM FUSE location - position A8 in the ECM plugin. Says I am supposed to get 12 V. Fuse is good - checked with a test light on either side of fuse...all good. But when I check the wire it says zero.

Now I gotta route back to the fuse panel to see why this wire is not getting power.

All the other locations on the plugin seem good....showing proper amounts of power etc.
Why would my ECM SES light come on and work correctly (code 12) when the IGN ECM FUSE wire has NO power with "key on" ????