What Cams Will Live In Our Engines?

Originally posted by SinistrV6
Is that the excuse the cam makers use? Race parts? I don't expect a radical cam to last 100k miles. But, for the most part, there's nothing radical about the cams we run in our motors.

Anyone make a stock replacement cam? If the quality was good, why wouldn't it last like the stock cam? (Assuming the proper break-in procedure is followed)

Calling all aftermarket cams "race parts" seems like a cop out by the cam makers to me.

i agree with you on all counts, there are plenty of daily driven GNs with aftermarket cams that only go to the track every year or so, and not having a cam last more than 30,000 is rediculous in my opinion. I'll have to see how mine does, so far the cam has seen 15,000 or so, but the motor has been rebuilt recently because of a cracked head, because the porter went a little too far. i would like to have it last for at least 50,000 if not more. If properly taken care of i really see no good reason why they shouldn't
 
Originally posted by CallMeMud
If you get 50k miles on your race motor sign me up :D I will take two ;)
that may have come off wrong, i meant the cam lasting that long, the motor is another story, we all know the limits of these motors are pretty high but things happen. Unless the cam is hurt from antifreeze or low oil pressure i don't see why it should be able to last
 
I too have been following this thread with much interest. As was posted earlier, my engine was starved for oil (clogged and collaspe pickup from using a DR chain with a tensioner and HV oil pump). Three of the four cam bearings are trashed (looks like they got hot and melted). This cam (poston 107T) has 45000 miles on it. I have not check run out, but this cam specs out perfect and the lobes look fine (no hot spots). I used a very heavy valve spring in my combination, but the spring spec (for this cam) is 108 closed pressure with 350 spring rate. My valve springs are 110 closed pressure with 358 spring rate. IMHO, I too believe that proper break-in is a must, but I'm beginning to believe that matching the spring rates to the cam manufacturer may also hold the key to cam longevity. If my cam is not straight, I'll probably change to a 206 Compcam, but I'll remove the heavy valve springs and replace them with the 980 valve spring. If the stick is straight, I'll put it back in with the existing springs.
I know I'll get an arguement form a few of you, but I am now a firm believer of high pressure and not high volume oil pumps. My engine will go together with high pressure and not high volume. I left a message with Kenne Belle, about their booster plate and high volume conversion (oil pump gear position). The next day, I received a call from Jim Belle. Interestingly, he said he would be surprised if I didn't wipe the #1 cam bearing, due to the increased oil pump volume. As it turns out, 1,2 and 3 bearings are wiped. He also said that even though they sell very little to the Buick community, Kenne Belle no longer recommends (and will persuade you not to buy) the HV conversion. And I quote, "We've had too many cam bearing issues with the HV conversion, so we only recommend the booster plate". Now many of you may poopoo Kenne Belle, but I give props to the company for returning my call and providing an honest opinion.
 
Run them for a while then freshen with new is my train of thought so no need to go long mileage. If you are going mid 11's or below this is the only way to go. In reality every pass I make I think will be the last on the motor. Just the frame of mind I am in when racing. Stuff breaks, etc... That way I am not upset when it does happen (never has yet). For an everyday 12 second car that is raced 4-5 times a year they should go 50k but not a car that is making 8-15 passes or WOT blasts a week.
 
Originally posted by CallMeMud
For an everyday 12 second car that is raced 4-5 times a year they should go 50k ...

This is the type of driving most of us do. I'd say anything LESS than 50k miles would be unacceptable. It's a shame you can't get OEM cams anymore.
 
Richard,

I believe you're correct in stating that you can't get the OEM cam from Buick any longer but if you still want a stock cam grind they are available through Sealed Power, Melling etc. FWIW I've seen as many flat stock cams as aftermarket cams. It usually isn't the cam that is at fault.

Neal
 
Neal,

What would you attribute most of the failures to? Improper break-in? Low oil pressure? Something else?

It wouldn't bother me so bad except that when a cam goes, it has a tendency to take everything else with it!
 
Richard,

There are a lot of varibles that go into a cam failure. Every failure needs to be analized seperately to find the root cause. If the cam fails shortly after the break in then there is the possibility of an assembly error or bad break in proceedure.

More often than not on a buick cam that has been run for a while it will flatten 1 lobe. Typically this will occur on the #3 exhaust lobe and is due to a poor mechanical relationship between that lobe and lifter. Some block/lifter combos are better and some are cam eaters.

Some stock cams will last in excess of 200K miles (I actually know of one engine with 290K on it and it's fine) and I have seen flat ones at 80K. Aftermarket cams usually don't last as long due to more agressive profiles more spring pressure etc. and the underlying problem described above.

If you have a cam that loses one lobe over a long duration it usually doesn't have a detrimental effect on the engine as long as the oil/filter has been change regularly. In this case the cam can be replaced, an inspection of the engine done and you're on your way again. A casastrophic failure is another story.

Neal
 
<SNIP>
Originally posted by 750H.P.V6
FWIW I've seen as many flat stock cams as aftermarket cams. It usually isn't the cam that is at fault.

Neal

Damn it! Sounds like no hope for my #3e eatin' block

I am out of work - WILL WORK FOR ROLLER
 
I've got a roller cam I can sell you. It's 212/212 as I recall. I have to check the cam card. It's new. I also have a set of used hydraulic roller lifters too. No timing set or misc pieces. Drop me a line if you're interested.

Neal
 
This thread is a "must read"!

Lifter bore alignment will be an ongoing issue with the V6 engines.
Since I am currently working on a fresh motor, I found this the an excellent thread.

My machine shop build many TR motors but was unaware of this.
I am wondering if one could keep the cam/crank chain alignment where it needs to be and ......... "move the cam back" into the block by adding a 0.030" shim between the cam and cam gear. Basically moving the cam towards the cam plug (Keep the expansion plug 0.030 out), and offset all the lobes 0.030 from the holes. :confused:

I took some pics and looking for solutions besides a the ultimate solution; A roller set-up. This will be a daily driver and most likely never see the track.
Thoughts anyone?
 

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Our experience...

Kristi's Monte has a 200/200 Lunati camshaft that's approaching 35K and it seems to be fine. On the flip side, we had an engine professionally built by a Buick specialist and the cam went flat on the #1 lobe after about 15K miles. Both the assembly and the camshaft break-in for this motor were performed meticulously by the builder, and the cam was a Reed 214/218 with matching springs.
When we tore down Old Gray's motor after about 20K miles, the 206 Comp flat-tappet cam showed visible wear but had not yet failed. We went for a roller this time around in that car.
 
Interestingly, I called the Comp tech line (You already know the asnwer).
They have never heard of lifter bore issues with these motors and were unable to comment on the "fix". As stated by the tech ........ "We can't say how much offset is needed for the lifter and I think it will be fine". :eek:

It may very well be fine, but after reading this, I feel like I am rolling the dice.
And THAT, I am not looking forward to. :rolleyes:
 
Jerryl said:
Interestingly, I called the Comp tech line (You already know the asnwer).
They have never heard of lifter bore issues with these motors and were unable to comment on the "fix". As stated by the tech ........ "We can't say how much offset is needed for the lifter and I think it will be fine". :eek:

It may very well be fine, but after reading this, I feel like I am rolling the dice.
And THAT, I am not looking forward to. :rolleyes:

When I talked to Comp this past January they said they were aware of the slight offset on #3 but it isn't as dramatic an offset from block to block. It has more to do with core shift than anything else. Looking at your pictures and comparing them to my motor I built this year, yours has more offset than mine did. Mine are almost perfectly inline, #3 was just a touch off center on mine and the rest were spot on perfect. This will vary from block to block.
 
i too have been following this thread (some good info)
so heres a quick question....
is this problem only related to flat tappet cams or rollers as well?
 
That lack of spin on #3 is definately a problem. Having a decent bit of experience with metallurgy, I can tell you that if the cam was not tempered properly, or not tempered at all after hardening, you'll end up with some glass hard metal. Temper at too high a temp, and the metal will be too soft. Too low a temp, too hard. No temper, glass hard and brittle. When you have a cam thats too hard, your lifters will start to wear, and then you'll end up wiping both lifter and lobe. I think alot of cam manufacturers are tempering to too low of a hardness which doesnt match the hardness of the lifters, and then you have lifters wiping lobes out. Believe it or not, changing your tempering temperature by just 20 degrees can have a pretty drastic effect on the metal, (especialy the quenching process) and its easy for guys, mass producing cams, to lose a little control over their temps. Its hard to get an even temper around the whole lobe, given the fact that the nose of the lobe itself will be at a higher temperature than the base circle of the lobe during the process. The base of the lobe is right there at the main core of the bar, which is subject to more heat transfer then the tip of the lobe. The nose of the lobe has more surface area to radiate heat, but air is a lousy conductor. I dont know if the cam guys are measuring temper/hardness at the base, the nose, or getting an average number, or bothering with it at all. They probably use induction hardening, which is more prone to the condition I stated above. Air hardening or flame hardening while spinning the cam would probably be the way to go.
Basically, if the hardness of the lobe isnt almost identical to the hardness of the lifter base, you'll more than likely see problems with wear. You need to find a cam maker with very strict quality control practices.
Then when the cam gets ground, if they dont do it right, the temper will get all screwed up. Using a fine stone to do roughing work, not enough coolant, overly aggresive grinding, etc can mess things up in a hurry.
The break in process is a tempering procedure in itself, so follow the process to a T.
Another issue comes from having worn out lifter bores. If its bad enough, the lifter can **** and drive the leading edge of the lifter into the lobe, which is bad for obvious reasons.
You should use a good moly lube for break in as well.
Always use new lifters. Ive seen guys try to re-use them, which I cant understand.
Sometimes you'll have a shave of bearing material hanging off a cam bearing from a crappy bearing install job, and when you install the new cam, you can actually catch this shaving and push it into the bearing. There goes that bearing. Best to look at the bearings very closely before installing it, and take your time. You need a good long cam insertion tool (stop laughing! :biggrin: ) so you can get enough leverage on it to balance it and avoid ramming it into the edge of the bearings. Its easy to smash the edge of every single bearing as you drive it in.
 
Out of the box

Being the cheap bas***** that I am and already having purchased the flat tappet parts, I have a question.

What do you guys and gals think of shaving a bit (0.050”) of the cam lobe on one side. The pressure on the surface would increase, but, not too significant. This would in fact offset the lobe in relation to the lifter and increase the spin a bit. Think it would work?

Of course, this would also be in line with the current method used by the manufacturer(s) to ensure camshaft life.
 

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I'm not sure, but I don't think it will work. The lobe and lifter contact point moves around, depending on where in the cycle it is. On the flank, the point is near the edge of the cam, over the nose it sometimes moves inward. So if the lifter is trying to contact the lobe near the edge, and now that surface is gone ... ??
 
comp cams here too. Been in the engine about 10 years .. no problems. Not many miles thio. Maybe 15-20k
 
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