I thought I'd let some of you take a look at the project I'm up to. I have 5 turbos currently so now I'm building a hybred of my own for a carb turbo set up. As you can see there are some differences but the center sections are identical except for the intake adapter. The intake side of the turbos are different in size but there is a great deal difference in overall size of the housing and where the intake adapter mounts. The intake wheels are very different and the heights are the same but the overal size is different. The exhaust wheels look the same and the shafts are but the outlet size of the wheel is different and the pics just don't show it well. Both use the same bushings and seals so no diff there. The other diff is the outlet side of the exhaust housing. Much larger hole for the wastegate and 5 versis 4 bolt hook up for the wastegate.
Turbo redesign for a carb turbo system
- Thread starter charlief1
- Start date
LilSpann601
New Member
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2008
was there a 2bbl and a 4bbl version of the carb turbo setup?
Now for the rest of the story. Yes there was a 2 and 4 bbl turbo set up but that's not the difference. The smaller of the two is a T-Type turbo and the larger is the TTA 301 turbo. The exhaust housing are different enough so that you can't easily mount it on the v6 but what looks like a big diff on the intake housing isn't that big a diff. I'll post some more pics later so you can see what I'm talking about.:biggrin:
forcefed3.8's
Buckeye Bullet
- Joined
- May 26, 2002
The 301 turbo is slightly larger than an 86/87 stock turbo. It would be a good swap. If you had a 2004r with a stock D5 converter, it would probably work great.
These 3 pics are a little clearer so you can see the differences between the two housings. The inlet side of the turbos are a little different in the size of the opening and the bolt patern for the TTA is slightly larger. This is an easy fix. Either fill the holes and re-drill for the buick adapter or have the holes on the adapter elongated to fit.
On the compressor side there isn't any diff so no problems. The only issues will be in width and mounting flange. The width will have to be cut down by a machine shop and same with the mounting flange. You either need to weld on the manifold to reposition the mounting holes or have the shop of your choice modify the intake housing of the turbo and move the two ears to fit the intake. I plan on moving the ears instead of modifying the intake. When I get this done I'll post a pic. It'll be a while though cause we're slow at work and time is getting cut.
On the compressor side there isn't any diff so no problems. The only issues will be in width and mounting flange. The width will have to be cut down by a machine shop and same with the mounting flange. You either need to weld on the manifold to reposition the mounting holes or have the shop of your choice modify the intake housing of the turbo and move the two ears to fit the intake. I plan on moving the ears instead of modifying the intake. When I get this done I'll post a pic. It'll be a while though cause we're slow at work and time is getting cut.Attachments
And the height diff is .48" and you have .625 before you cut flush with the mounting section. The height diff is 1/4" so there are no hood clearance problems. One of the other modifications I'll be making is to the carb mount. I'm adding 3/8" to the height and welding some added matereal to it so I can open up the inlet to the turbo for better air flow.
b4black
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2001
I've compared the two before. To me, it looks like a lot of hassle getting the 301T turbo to fit. Everything is close, but different enough to not be easy.
And I don't think it's really worth it. Bigger isn't always better - just different. I have a V6 turbo with larger impellars machined into it. It helps on the high rpm end, but hurts the car out of the hole. For a street car, getting out of the hole is much more important. I've thought about going back to my stocker.
I think the effort wopuld be best spent tuning with the stock turbo. There's a lot there to work with. A simple DIY water injection will take you further.
Or spend you time moving to a blow through set up using 86/87 parts. Then you'll have an unlimited amount of turbos to choose from.
And I don't think it's really worth it. Bigger isn't always better - just different. I have a V6 turbo with larger impellars machined into it. It helps on the high rpm end, but hurts the car out of the hole. For a street car, getting out of the hole is much more important. I've thought about going back to my stocker.
I think the effort wopuld be best spent tuning with the stock turbo. There's a lot there to work with. A simple DIY water injection will take you further.
Or spend you time moving to a blow through set up using 86/87 parts. Then you'll have an unlimited amount of turbos to choose from.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
For something that isnt intercooled I think the larger turbo would help in that a larger volume of air can be moved more effeciently..... im thinking along the lines that it should produce more power to the same amount of boost due to less heating of air.
Use of an alky kit can help with the bog at the bottom end, a larger accelrator pump really really helps for off the line. hint hint holley guys**
A.j.
Use of an alky kit can help with the bog at the bottom end, a larger accelrator pump really really helps for off the line. hint hint holley guys**
A.j.
Your right doc, and Rich, I'm ony using the intake side not the whole turbo. I'll be changing from an AR .42 intake to an AR .60 increasing the effectiveness of the compressor side and reducing the heating effect of the turbo on the air fuel mixture. On top of this it's a 4.1 with 6.65 rods and pistons witha pch of about 1.182 do the extra volume will be needed. I'm working on this due to an idea I got from philbuildt.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
for the motor your building its going to fall short..... you need a Rajay draw thru unit. Or if you really wanted the best, Pursue the Rotomaster system.
That stock intake is the choke point...... it flows for crap.... and theres little to do to improve it.... the small passages are only increasing the heat being made during compression of the turbo....
cheat cheat........ this is where i have been kinda successful for the Drawthru: Allow the boost to expand some in a plenum of sorts.... it will reduce the heat being built up and give the chance for built up heat to dissapate a small amount instead of being dumped right from the discharge port of the turbo. add Alky to this equasion and inject it where the "Plenum" is.... that expansion and the added alky will have a dramatic cooling effect.... Though i cant say on the legitimacy of my testing data... as it was devloped by me i have reported a 6 to 7 degree difference in temp with the "plenum" and 16 to 21 degree difference with alky from those changes using a STOCK 83 turbo. I would imagine, the larger more effecient 301 turbo will report a larger change in charge temp.
I do realize that its a small increase for the amount of modification and fabrication required, but its along the ideas that need to be pursued and much further testing is needed to be done, it was all done in effort to try and understand what charcteristics are major players in the draw thru world. from that data real attempts can be made to make more power.
Just my .02$
A.j.
That stock intake is the choke point...... it flows for crap.... and theres little to do to improve it.... the small passages are only increasing the heat being made during compression of the turbo....
cheat cheat........ this is where i have been kinda successful for the Drawthru: Allow the boost to expand some in a plenum of sorts.... it will reduce the heat being built up and give the chance for built up heat to dissapate a small amount instead of being dumped right from the discharge port of the turbo. add Alky to this equasion and inject it where the "Plenum" is.... that expansion and the added alky will have a dramatic cooling effect.... Though i cant say on the legitimacy of my testing data... as it was devloped by me i have reported a 6 to 7 degree difference in temp with the "plenum" and 16 to 21 degree difference with alky from those changes using a STOCK 83 turbo. I would imagine, the larger more effecient 301 turbo will report a larger change in charge temp.
I do realize that its a small increase for the amount of modification and fabrication required, but its along the ideas that need to be pursued and much further testing is needed to be done, it was all done in effort to try and understand what charcteristics are major players in the draw thru world. from that data real attempts can be made to make more power.
Just my .02$
A.j.I've been considering a very highly modified manifold or possibly have it sludge ported but I'm not ready for that just yet. Starting with the turbo first and then go from there. By the way doc, I found someting you might be interested in. Here you go.
eBay Motors: Edelbrock Buick V6 GMC 471 Blower Supercharger Intake (item 200291146069 end time Feb-20-09 12:55:21 PST)
eBay Motors: Edelbrock Buick V6 GMC 471 Blower Supercharger Intake (item 200291146069 end time Feb-20-09 12:55:21 PST)
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
LOL... I dig what your saying boss.... I like that old school stuff and the drawthru was the coolest of the turbo buick stuff to me..... kinda like how you wouldnt think an F4 Phantom would fly cause its a brick -aving a 10sec 1/4 mile slip for draw thru seems kinda the same..... it can be done... but who has? I like that challange.
As for the Blower Intake, I have one of those! LOL if only they made more 6-71s or just an 8-71 blower manifold!
thanks for the conversation Charlie.
:biggrin: A.j.
If there was someway to do the Smokey yunik turbo set up on a buick that would be the best idea but I think there would be other problems with that. Since I have 2 intakes I'm thinking about machining/cutting the top of the runners off and replacing them with sheet aluminum increasing flow, cooling effect, and reducing weight but I probibly won't.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
Aww come on Charlie.... you know you wanna lead the draw-thru arms race!
LOL
I had thought about using the base of an 87 intake and machining an adapter to that, using a built up mountain of epoxy inside the base to aid flow......... The injector bungs could double as either a port for nitrous injection or fuel, using a low lb rating injector. This could solve the lag problem and probably spool hard enough to net a solid 60' time.
Hmmm Ideas ideas......
All I need is time and money...........:tongue:
A.j.
LOL
I had thought about using the base of an 87 intake and machining an adapter to that, using a built up mountain of epoxy inside the base to aid flow......... The injector bungs could double as either a port for nitrous injection or fuel, using a low lb rating injector. This could solve the lag problem and probably spool hard enough to net a solid 60' time.
Hmmm Ideas ideas......
All I need is time and money...........:tongue:
A.j.
Freddie's Buick
Hell No! I'm not a junior
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2002
You're the second person I know that mentioned that the stock carbed Buick turbo intake was the Achilles heel in the system. Edelbrock made that fantastic N/A intake and I often wondered why did'nt they make one for the turbo. It's a simple mod from what I see.
Hogging up those ports from a duel plane and a high rise, (as with the N/A Edelbroke intake), would not cause any problems in my book. I'm sure there's a market considering how these cars are still tweak popular.
I may even write to them and see if it's possible.
:tongue: .....I know...I know.....just dreaming.
dr_frankenstein
Mad Scientist
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2008
You're the second person I know that mentioned that the stock carbed Buick turbo intake was the Achilles heel in the system. Edelbrock made that fantastic N/A intake and I often wondered why did'nt they make one for the turbo. It's a simple mod from what I see.
Hogging up those ports from a duel plane and a high rise, (as with the N/A Edelbroke intake), would not cause any problems in my book. I'm sure there's a market considering how these cars are still tweak popular.
I may even write to them and see if it's possible.
.....I know...I know.....just dreaming.
Thats the biggest problem! the turbos themselves are a bit of a holding point, but really its that ****ty intake. damn them and there hood clearance!
The turbo itself is F'n great i think, Ever tried swapping one onto something else? try a VW flat 4 ............. will run like a whipped dog. Try using one on an Iron Duke 4 banger........... will **** the crank out before you even really turn the boost on! the Early turbo is well designed and sturdy - I make it a point to collect as many as I possibly can.
If you really want to get the upper hand on the intake problem, look no futher than to the past. The old Rotomaster system flows so well..... and will make the power! having those Low Boost valves in the base also helps with spool and lag. The accel system is basicly the same but a little more simple.
but they were the children of the early 70s! the tech was out there we just need to find it and refine it!
I'll see if I can get you pictures if you want of the testing setups ive devolped might give you some ideas.
A.j.
I considered using an intake off of one of the early fwd cars myself as a base, I even have one. The biggest problem is it has to mount backwards so the water outlet has to be at the back of the intake but it might be a good base for a sheet metal one but the amount of work involved would be reduculas. (NO I CAINT SPEEL..HUSH):biggrin: As far as the modifications to the plenum I got lucky and found a 3/8 spacer for the Q-jet and it's about the same height as the efe heater so I can weld it and another 3/8" peice to the plenum and have a little more room for porting out the opening from the carb and turbo for better flow. I was going to use a 5/8 spacer/adapter I have laying around but this one came up and I didn't want to go to high and mess up hood clearance. It should allow for a little better flow to the turbo. AND YES I WANNA PROVE I CAN DO IT!!!!!!!
