Turbo and Camshaft Question

[FastGN007]

I will be finishing up my engine in the next few weeks. I still need to order some parts and had a few questions. My goal is to be able to dip into the 11's and keep it close to stock appearing. The current combination is as follows:

stock block
ARP Main Studs
stock crank .010 mains and .020 rods Clevite Bearings
stock rods polished and shotpeened
ARP Rod Bolts
JE Pistons
Total Seal Gapless Second Ring Pack
stock heads (ported/polished/valves)
ARP Head Bolts
Cometic Head Gaskets
Ported Intake
Power Plate
Stock Location Stretch Intercooler

Turbo: I was planning on using a TA-49 but have recently considered the GT 3255 due to the advantages the GT turbos offer over the T series. Is the GT3255 stock appearing and what is everyones feeling on which to use. I have a stock converter now but will be getting a 2800 stall in the near future.

Camshaft: I am trying to decide whether to go with the Lunati 200/200 or go with the 204/214. Also, what springs is everyone using? Where can i get GM lifters?

I was either going to go with 36 or 42# injectors. I am afraid that i will be pushing it with the 36# but i want to use the smallest injector that can support the horsepower.

Any info or opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Scott

 

[turbofabricator]

Go with the Motron 60# injectors, as they will work GREAT on the street with a good chip. And have alot of upward mobility. If you have the 36lb injectors, then use them for mid elevens or slower. Add a Alcohol injection system (Razors). You should really consider removing the gapless 2nd ring set-up. There is more power to be had with a standard 2nd ring with the gap WIDER than the top ring. Using the gapless 2nd ring causes the top ring to flutter, thus reducing horsepower and causing excessive cylinder wall wear and parastatic friction loss. Few running HIGH hp engines runs them anymore. Read this if you want some more input. Read questions #1 and #11 Wiseco FAQs And another good read about Gapless rings. Speedwake.com - 2nd Ring Gap? I also do NOT like the gapless top rings, especially with a boosted application as they are WAY too thin to handle the high heat and they also have less surface area to transfere heat to the cylinder wall. Some people say they make more power with them,(2nd gapless) but HOW did they quantify that? GM has spent MANY MANY hours/years widening the second ring gap. They woldn't do this if it was bad. You can spend hours and hours reading up on what the "experts" say about gapless second rings. Some controversial. IF the engine is already installed in the car, then they will still work, but removing them on the next build would be HIGHLY recommended.
I also would suggest the hydraulic roller cams available today if your budget will allow. IF you want to run the flat tappet, then go with Comp 208/208 and stay away from Lunati. EVERY Lunati cam that I have used has gone flat. (about 15-18 of them) Comp or Earson has a better grind and last longer. Lunati lobes are not taperd in the same way as the factory taper is. (maybe in the last 5 years they have got it right) 5 lobes are tapered one way and 7 lobes taper the other way on the factory cam (they taper the lobe to spin the lifter in the bore and center the cam in the block.) Many cam grinders taper the lobes every other one in opposite direction. This seems to be most of the #3 cam lobe failure problem in my research. Call Mike at Full throttle or Dan Strezo at DLS for a the roller cam option if you can buck up for it. ($800 for the complete kit) They have been thouroughly tested. The TA-49 (if you already have one) WILL get you to a mid eleven second pass. Not much further, though. What parts do you already have, so we can tell you what to keep and what to replace. Why only 11.90"? You can run 11.50 w/o a roll bar these days. With ported heads you can get some good mph at the track and still stay below 11.50. Just takes a soft launch.

 

[Brer Rabbit]

I agree with fabricator..

More injector---60s are great, and the same cam I have(210/215 hydraulic roller), along with a ta 49 or te 44, and U will have a rocket ship on ur hands. No experience with the GT series turbos, but anything is better than stock.

 

[dproberts05]

turbo

My personal experience with the GT3255e has been great. I have a fresh stock rebuild on my engine no cam, no head work, etc. I run 009 injectors, the GT3255e, THDP, 2800 stall D5, and other supporting bolt on stuff. I had a best E.T. of 11.88 at 112 last summer with this setup with 112 octane and 22 lbs. of boost. The car had plenty more to spare. My O2 milivolts were in the high 800s so I had plenty of room to lean it out and add more boost. Buy the GT3255, put in a cam while the engine is out, get some 009s and Razors alky kit. Most of it all depends on how fast you want to go.

I forgot to mention how great the spool-up is with the GT3255. With my conveter it is like having instant boost, but at the same time the car seems to pull very well in the top end with this turbo.

 

[FastGN007]

thanks for the replies. The only parts i still need to purchase are the turbo, cam, valvesprings, lifters, and injectors.

I went with the Total Seal Gapless second ring set because i was under the impression that they will seal better and help keep oil from entering the combustion which will keep piston and oil temps down which would help with detonation. Total Seal now has an AP Steel top ring that is out for high boost applications. I don't plan to run more than 20psi of boost. We have used Total Seals Gapless Top rings on our N/A race motors with great success and after talking with Keith from Total Seal I am going to give the Gapless second set a try.

I did not want to go bigger than a 42# injector if i don't have to. The smallest injector that can support the horsepower is the one that I want. If the injector is too large it can effect idle because the computer has to compensate for it. I am pretty sure it affects fuel atomization as well. Assuming it will take 440 horsepower at the crank and a BSFC of .55, a 36 pound injector is a touch small and the 42 pound injector is a touch big. I will probably end up with 42# injectors.

I don't really have the money to spend on a hydraulic roller. Has anyone else had problems with the Lunati cam? I know that Red Armstrong used that cam a while back and went into the 10's with it. Does anyone have info on valve springs and GM lifters?

Thanks again for everyones responses! I am hoping to have it together and on the dyno by the middle of April.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[MajorBoost]

springs

Valve springs, not sure on the part number but Gs club recommends no more than 90 lbs springs i am sure comp can provided them check the summit catalog.

 

[83ttypecooled]

Hi,
This has been a most interesting post, and I thank you all for participating.You motor guys are great, never thought about some of the stuff you brought up, like ring contact heat transfer. I guess that's stuff only an engineer and a race engine builder would think about.
I, however, have quite a simple agenda, and will go my own road. I think a strong basic rebuild, with tried and proven parts and a few that strengthen the whole operating assembly, will be more than adequate to produce at least 400 RWHP. I may be lowballing this, as one can always tune for more.
Again, thanks for the input. I am percollating with thoughts from this one!

 

[turbofabricator]

Be VERY careful about what you "hear" about what someone "said" they run/ran. There have been MANY untruths stated about cams and torque conveters used in yester year. If you want to run a flat tappet hydraulic, then contact Comp or Erson for a dependable grind. They DO work, IF you follow good break-in proceedures. (posted elsewhere on this forum) Agian, be careful about what a vendor says about THEIR own product. Join Speedtalk.com and research what nearly ALL the BIG engine builders say about gapless rings. Darin Morgan of Reher-Morrison claimed they HURT power in a NHRA Pro Stock engine. They FIGHT for 5 horsepower. Many 20 hour days have been spent on the dyno trying to find 5 horsepower. Every manufacturer has the BEST product, just ask them, they'll tell you. I am not trying to "DIS" Total seal, but my experience and research shows negative results. A friend just installed the top gapless ones in a 650+hp Lightning, and they KILLED his top ringlands of his JE pistons. The tempurature of the top ring collapsed his ring lands. I have found Zero power using them, but if you live by leak-down results, then you'll be VERY happy with them. I don't think that they'll seriously hurt your engine, but if you have a chance to remove them, "I" would. The testing has been done. Research the results from top engine builders. Most, but not all, do not use them. This is just MY opinion, of course, and you, in NO way, have to listen.:smile: I do NOT sell any parts for anyone, so this is as unbiased as I can be. Good luck with your car! I'm not trying to start a pissn' match, just giving folks my honest opinion. Which is like belly buttons, everyone has one.:biggrin:

 

[FastGN007]

Thank you for all of the information! I really appreciate it. I too recommend that everyone reads the information that is shared on Speedtalk. I have been hooked on that site for two years now! I am going to get a set of conventional rings and give them a try. Has anyone used the JE Pro Seal Rings? This is my first time building a turbo buick engine. We have been doing NHRA Super Stock stuff and N/A 10.5 heads up racing engines for the past few years.

The ring packs for those applications have come a long way over the years. There are a few super stockers that run a Total Seal gapless second and then back cut the top ring to reduce tension and run more end gap to keep it from unloading the rings due to the pressure between them. And in some cases you just leave that second ring out all together!! :biggrin:

On another note, the Napier style second ring back cut has worked amazing for us as well in our N/A engines. They have very little radial tension and control oil amazingly. I have spoke with Darin Morgan a few times and when i asked him about running a gapless top ring in an N/A application he told me "The Total Seal gapless rings that are micro flattened and matched sets are the best for just about any application." With a lot of the high horsepower N/A engines, the top ring is moved up and can really take a beating. Especially with the ring packs they have out now!

It seems as if there is a lot more negative feedback about the Gapless rings. Whether they work or not is a subject that has been beaten to death for a while now. I really appreciate all of the information that has been provided and I am going to stay away from the Gapless second ring set for this engine build. I included that information above on rings for anyone interested even though it does not particularly pertain to these engines.

Thanks for the cam suggestion. I will most likely be getting a comp cam and springs.

Does anyone have any more feedback on Turbos? TA-49 or the GT3255?

Thanks again,
Scott T. Ercole